James Fee GIS Blog

25 responses so far ↓

• 1 timmy // Oct 1, 2007 at 8:07 pm

  Hmmmm…. Ok I’ll bite.

  I’m all for cherry picking the best product for the requirements at hand but when it comes to a sophisticated enterprise system that calls for some level of ubiquity across the organization and associated business partners I haven’t seen anything deliver outside the typical ESRI stack. Before you start to pile on consider the full spectrum of resources necessary to bring a comprehensive enterprise to bear. Software, hardware, data, talent, training, support, market presence, yada yada yada.

  All things considered I think the talent pool and market presence are the biggest deal breakers. Anyone responsible for hiring in our industry knows that qualified GIS staff with solid professional character is uncommon at best due to demand. Let’s face it, most position descriptions call for nearly impossible credentials. Now throw in the potpourri of skills associated with the patchwork solution suggested in your post and you’re staring down the barrel of in house or on the job training…. every time you re-hire. Did you save $1,500 in software maintenance at the cost of $10,000 in productivity and training costs? One would be negligent not to consider the risk.

  Market share is an undeniable factor in a successful enterprise as well. It feeds on itself. In a broad organization no one can anticipate what application requirements will be brought to the enterprise. But, one can at least anticipate who the third party vendors will cater to when it comes to development. And that translates to the increased possibility of a cots software that can readily integrate with the enterprise with minimal configuration. Additionally the cost of the cots software is distributed over a wider market theoretically bringing the price down. Building anything from scratch and solely supporting it through its life cycle will cost you dearly.

  That said I’m all for product diversity and I believe the ecology of our industry calls for it, but it’s not only about whether the alternative solutions can compete technically, but also meet all of the business requirements associated with engineering, sustaining, and managing the enterprise. With that in mind I’m watching Microsoft very carefully. I don’t think it’s all the little fish in the pond that ESRI should be worried about; it’s the orca that’s just started to size things up. But who knows…

  Timmy

• 2 FantomPlanet // Oct 1, 2007 at 8:59 pm

  James, if you’re there long enough, find your way over to The Wave, see if Michael still works the bar and ask for a “Purple Jenga.” Otherwise, the Red Lion and the Moose McGillicuddy’s is all right. I’d recommend some other places, but they’re located elsewhere on the island that may be outside of your driving comfort zone.

• 3 Paul Ramsey // Oct 1, 2007 at 10:41 pm

  The argument about the ubiquity of ESRI skills would be more convincing if ESRI never changed their software. But of course, they too are constantly innovating and rendering the skills of the ESRI pool of talent obsolete. Any consultant of my cohort who had not constantly trained and learned would be sitting on a tasty skill-set consisting only of AML and Avenue… uh oh! No ArcIMS, ArcServer, ArcMap, ArcObjects, ADF, .Net, etc! So if you’re re-training and learning anyhow, like a good professional, learn a few things off the reservation. Tools like PostGIS, Mapserver, MapGuide and OGR aren’t going to go away, and they are useful to have in the back (and front) pocket.

• 4 James Fee // Oct 1, 2007 at 11:37 pm

  Timmy, I think you are reading more into this than you should. What you have here is a company allocating their resources in a very smart way. They have highly skilled and highly valued GIS analyst talent that is ESRI centric. These folks are very targeted on one aspect of this companies focus. They have figured out that it makes sense to allocate all ESRI maintenance funds to this group. The rest of the company can barely spell GIS, but they need to get information out of what these ArcInfo folks were doing. If they went ArcGIS Server, they’d have to cut back on ArcInfo licenses which defeats the purpose of this initiative. Thus the combo of PostGIS/MapServer was the best solution for them. They were able to hire folks “off the street” to maintain the PostgreSQL and Linux servers rather than having their highly paid GIS analysts run the show. Folks that had ArcView that still want a desktop GIS product got QGIS for their very basic GIS needs and those who didn’t even know they had ArcView were directed to their companies web based GIS system built using open source tools.

  The dynamic that I think many folks need to grasp here is that they didn’t need to pay a GIS analyst to maintain the web services. They can hire cheaper and in most case better talent that understands PostgreSQL and Linux and let their GIS folks worry about content creation and analysis. Paying GIS analysts to maintain web servers is throwing good money after bad. Paying programmers who get LAMP (Linux, Apache, Mapserver, PostGIS) to install, maintain and improve these products makes much more sense. Their GIS analyst then can spend their time focused on bettering their skills and not having to try and keep up with skills that are beyond their training.

  Paul has a good point, you need to keep your skill set up to date. But if you try and over extend yourself, you can end up with a diminished skill set over time. I see many GIS professionals do this. They become average in everything, rather than being exception at one area. Being irreplaceable can do wonders to you salary.

• 5 chanupi // Oct 2, 2007 at 4:30 am

  Here in Michigan we are all looking for ways to save money, and keep the GIS at a high level.

  Our local governments are squeezed budget-wise (see the recent state shut down scare).

  My company started to advocate for a low cost blend (esri, manifold, qgis, etc). This past conference we saw more (and different) people at our booth than we have in a long time at the local GIS conference.

  It’s good to see that a low cost philosophy has been implemented to great success!

• 6 Micah // Oct 2, 2007 at 7:04 am

  Here’s a more down to earth situation. I am the GIS ‘manager’ in a small county (pop. 180k) in central Il. the GIS staff here is essentially me. I cannot see how it would be a wise move to flip all my server end solutions to open source, integrate that with our existing IMS sites and add a dash of Q-GIS. I am not a programmer, and our in house programmers are being drug into the .net world kicking and screaming. ESRI still provides that support for me (at a price, i know) when my skill-set reaches the ceiling. I would LOVE to stay cutting edge in our development, but how do you explain ‘open source’ to a 62 year old clerk up in the Assessor’s office when she wants to know why you’ve changed everything again?

  Has anyone published a book or whitepaper or whatever that concisely summarizes Open Source GIS?

• 7 deadplanet // Oct 2, 2007 at 8:29 am

  James,

  I appreciate the “average in everything”comment relating to technical skills. I’ve come to realize lately that I am suffering from the “average in everything” skillset problem, and this has largely been fueled by periodically reading current job descriptions.

  In fact, I just read a job description at the GIS Job Clearinghouse from a well-known consulting firm… here are the skills they are looking for:

  - ArcGIS software platform (I guess that means ArcINFO and ArcView)
  - ArcIMS
  - ArcObjects
  - Spatial Analyst
  - 3D Analyst
  - Remote Sensing
  - SQL Server
  - Scripting (not sure what they mean here - Python, VBScript?)

  Now imagine adding open source technology skills to the mix? MySQL, PostGreSQL, QGIS, GRASS, MapServer, etc.

  Yikes! How are we supposed to keep up? Personally, I’m scared of specializing too much in the GIS industry, because I rarely see openings for specialized positions being advertised.

• 8 timmy // Oct 2, 2007 at 10:49 am

  I’m not against the concept of diversifying the solution stack as your Hawaii anecdote exemplifies, I’m just trying to figure out how to make it work in the context of a broad organization with diverse requirements.

  I do think that appropriately using division of labor does have merit but as Deadplanet and Micah suggests many organizations do not have the manpower to specialize. Additionally open source may be more prolific on the traditional IT side of the house but this would only apply to those who have programming staff dedicated to GIS support. Meanwhile many of us wear several different hats. I have hired many GIS staff and it is very rare to see open source skills noted in the resume; and when I do it’s often related to academic work. Besides that ESRI “altruistic” education program has insured that those entering the market from academia have a bias in their software proficiency.

  I also agree with Paul, ESRI is a moving target when it comes to maintaining skills but that could be said for any technology. What ESRI brings to table is a business network to be able to address the evolution of the technology. I know my staff can get on the phone with tech support, or another colleague, or a list serve, or reference a book, or take a class, or go to a conference to get what they need to get something done. This can be said for OS but not nearly at the same scale. Furthermore if they or their client need to buy, not build, a tool to accomplish a task it’s often available. How does one get around this?

  I’m not an ESRI apologist but I am pragmatic and if anyone can truly compete with ESRI they, open source or otherwise, will need to have a comprehensive solution and services. This is why I’m very interested in the direction that the EPA has gone marrying ESRI with Microsoft.

  All that said this is great conversation and I’m all ears. It’s good to know I’m not the only one wrestling with this…

  Timmy

• 9 scared // Oct 2, 2007 at 11:40 am

  OK, now you’ve got me worried. I hadn’t thought about how little skills I really have. I’m a GIS analyst at my company, but could I really get a job at a Web2.0 company? Never in a million years.

• 10 Legacy // Oct 2, 2007 at 12:22 pm

  Now you guys know what it is like to be a developer using Microsoft tools! Before we even have a chance to use the latest technologies, Microsoft will come out with yet another latest and greatest platform. Don’t worry about chasing the latest stuff, simply make sure that you have a good solid root in the fundamentals and keep abreast of the latest trends. When the time is right, move forward with the best technology at the time.

  I use a mix of many products including ESRI, Open Source, 3rd party products, and *gasp* Manifold. One might be surprised how it really isn’t al that difficult to move back and forth between the different products.

• 11 KoS // Oct 2, 2007 at 12:53 pm

  Timmy, your statement is partial true…”Besides that ESRI “altruistic” education program has insured that those entering the market from academia have a bias in their software proficiency. “

  In some cases that rings true. On the other hand, especially within the program at couple of local universities. The price wasn’t really the issue, it was more and less, who has the greatest market share. Depending on one’s view, good or bad, it’s ESRI. Students want to be taught the software which is being used(largest market share) in their field.

  Heck, students here, feel they are not learning enough of ESRI’s software. (Which won’t change until they bring in someone(s) with a different or greater skill set) The students are not too worried about other software packages, since they mainly see ESRI products in job announcements.

  I’m not sure how this has panned out. I haven’t had the time to follow up. I know one teacher started to use a non-esri software package in their GIS classes. And some of the students didn’t think highly of it. Mainly because they didn’t think it would enhance their job prospects. But there were a few who didn’t like the change after learning the “stuff” on ESRI the previous semester.

  Now, for the overall subject. I’m a big believer in using whatever tool(s) is the best for the given job. Given the know limitations, price, time, and skills.

  And I agree with Paul. Even if your skills are mainly in AML and/or Avenue, where I find myself in my current full-time job. One must branch out to build a wider breath of skills. Even if forced to do it on their own. I have to find the time to work on skills outside my normal duties. Whether it’s just informing myself or working with those “new” skills in voluntary activities.

  KoS

• 12 Andres // Oct 3, 2007 at 12:39 am

  I think that this thread is a great example of the growing pains in which the GIS industry/community finds itself right now. Whether for good or for bad, change is in the air, and I think in terms of implementing OSS that it’s all about risk and context.

  I was prepared to write a long post about risk and context, but really what it boils down to is the very diversity of organizations/companies out there, and the accompanying way in which GIS resources are set up. In terms of manpower, there are centralized, decentralized, hybrid, and one-person GIS shops out there. OSS does not (and perhaps can not) be implemented in all cases, but I believe that in *some* instances OSS is a good fit. This is why a GIS needs analysis is a great tool to turn to on a regular basis…you will get a better idea of what you need rather than what you want.

  James’ point about how the GIS staff at that organization are staying ESRI centric is the salient point in the discussion. In his example, the organization seems to be getting a lot more bang for the buck, or better stated: ROI. I don’t think that ESRI is going away (nor should they)…but GIS OSS has come a long way…and it’s here to stay (hey that rhymes!). Windows…Linux, IE…FF…and so on… Enough acronyms, it’s time to get some ZZZs before the AM.

• 13 Regina // Oct 3, 2007 at 4:49 am

  First I would like to say I am more from the IT database management side than the GIS side. As others have said change is the air. My big frustration with the GIS community at large is their inability to integrate their GIS data with non-GIS data and their general lack of understanding of data management concepts.

  Duh - people care about how the other data they collect fits into space and the skills that GIS people are coming out with just seem to lack that.

  I don’t think ESRI is really helping GIS folk in that area and GIS folk, at least the ones I deal with, seem rather scared of getting their head out of the hole they have it stuck in. This creates a real chasm between the GIS group and the IT group.

  I think to a great extent opensource software is better able to integrate because it knows it is not the be and end all. They aren’t introducing new weird concepts and terminology that have no relation to other parts of IT .

  On the other side of the stick it would be nice if opensource had more official training courses to change the perception of no help there.

  I must add the open source e-mail groups I have subscribed to are way better resources than the commercial like help groups I subscribe to where commercial just doesn’t seem to have quite the same sense of community as the open source ones. So that is just a stupid perception probably breeded by commercial sales folk.

• 14 micah // Oct 3, 2007 at 6:42 am

  Ouch… here’s you dagger, you left it in my side.

• 15 TedC // Oct 3, 2007 at 7:03 pm

  Hernando’s Hideway is a great place as well. It should be still there, might want to stay away from the Bananas place, though (Right next door)

• 16 Paul // Oct 3, 2007 at 7:12 pm

  Great topic - just have a few quick thoughts:

  I agree with the guys at the bar regarding finding a sustainable mix of GIS technologies.
  1. Quality data editing, analysis, and cartographic output with ArcInfo
  2.Use open platforms for low-tech reader desktops — if at all (see next bullet)
  3. General dissemination using open web mapping with current web application methods (i.e. not ArcIMS)
  4. As ESRI finally moves towards gis-data standards and open platforms - open storage platforms will be a no brainer

  BTW: As a long-time professional GISer - I left my old job because GIS employment couldn’t keep pace with my salary potential. Now I’m out in the non-gis IT world; it’s interesting to see how well corporations get along without GIS; of course - if they knew what they were missing …

  Lastly, it’s also intere$ting to see the few corporate applications that were built around ArcIMS (4x and 9x) and don’t want or need to go to ArcGIS Server.

• 17 Ryan Arp // Oct 4, 2007 at 4:12 pm

  Sounds like a fun time–Dukes’ is one of the more fun bars in Waikiki. Have fun in Hawai’i!

• 18 Chris Barker // Oct 5, 2007 at 12:44 pm

  First, a tiny nit pic:

  No one has a QGIS “license” on their desk - they have QGIS on their machine, and they can give it out to whomever they want, whenever the want, etc. — that’s half (but not all, but any means) of the point of Open Source.

  Now to address some of the other comments in this thread:

  “”"
  a sophisticated enterprise system that calls for some level of ubiquity across the organization and associated business partners I haven’t seen anything deliver outside the typical ESRI stack
  “”"
  Sure, that’s true — but two issues:

  1)does everyone need the comprehensive system — generally not.
  2) Why does the whole system have to come from the same place and/or vendor?

  What matters is that the tools do their job and can work together. OK, ESRI really is about the only option for a comprehensive mapping + analysis + everything else desktop GIS — but does that mean you need to use ArcIMS for your web mapping solution? No, it doesn’t. In fact, the Open Source solutions blow ESRI away when it comes to web mapping — I’ve NEVER seen an ArcIMS site that I liked. Same applies to SDE for your database — PostGIS is an excellent solution, and may integrate better with non-geo data.

  Even on the desktop — for a regular user, ArcGIS is great — lots of power and flexibility — but for a casual user, QGIS (and others) are far easier to use, and can be customized to be even easier for a specific application.

  “”"
  the cost of the cots software is distributed over a wider market theoretically bringing the price down. Building anything from scratch and solely supporting it through its life cycle will cost you dearly.
  “”"
  Using open source is hardly “building from scratch” — in fact, it’s all about distributing the labor, and more efficiently than proprietary solutions — QGIS leverages PostGIS, GRASS, GDAL, etc, etc, etc. And Open Source developers doesn’t have to waste a lot of money on marketing and patent attorneys…

  “”"
  qualified GIS staff with solid professional character is uncommon at best due to demand. Let’s face it, most position descriptions call for nearly impossible credentials.
  “”"
  Having “used” ArcMap hardly makes one a well qualified spatial analyst — I don’t know how many extensive Arc users I’ve talked to that hardly understand what a projection is. The truth is that yes, good GIS folks are hard to come by, but really knowing GIS takes more than knowing what buttons to click to accomplish a few tasks. Anyone that really does know GIS will be able to use different tools pretty easily (and, let’s face it, many of the Open Source tools model themselves after ESRI anyway). It’s similar to finding a good programmer — someone that has thrown together a web site with PHP is hardly a well qualified programmer. I have an analogy from when I learned to drive : I didn’t know how to drive a stick shift until I had learned to drive more than one different car, and I didn’t really know until I had driven a few cars and a truck or two. The same goes for programming. Anyone that has only used one language is not a well qualified programmer, and anyone that has only used one GIS system is not a well qualified spatial analyst.

  “”"
  ESRI still provides that support for me (at a price, i know) when my skill-set reaches the ceiling.
  “”"
  Why does the fact that you can use an Open Source product for free make people think that they can’t get support? You get GREAT support on mailing lists etc, and if you need more than that, FOSS4G was crawling with consultants that would be glad to support you for a fee — many of them being the people that wrote the code. How often do you get an ESRI tech support person that wrote any of the code in Arc? Or any code at all?

  “”"
  I would LOVE to stay cutting edge in our development, but how do you explain ‘open source’ to a 62 year old clerk up in the Assessor’s office when she wants to know why you’ve changed everything again?
  “”"

  Don’t make a change, either to Open Source, or to the latest commercial product in order to stay “cutting edge”. Make a change because the needs of your users have changed, or because you can provide them with a better service. When you make that change, choose the best solution — and I’ll bet that clerk doesn’t want to go to ESRI training to look at a map (and maybe manipulate it a bit). As an example, there was a presentation at FOSS4G from a guy who had developed a tool in Arc that let county officials see what the expected effects of different zoning rules might be. It was a hit, and all sort of folks wanted to use it, but whoops! who’s got ESRI licences and knows how to use it? So he re-did it with QGIS and GRASS — same analysis, but simpler interface, and he can give it out to anyone — you can even run it right off a cd. Your clerk may appreciate that.

  “”
  Has anyone published a book or whitepaper or whatever that concisely summarizes Open Source GIS?
  “”"
  It’s pretty much impossible to concisely summarize — it’s large, and it’s changing constantly. Checking out the FOSS4G web site is a pretty good way to get an overview though.

  “”"
  The students are not too worried about other software packages, since they mainly see ESRI products in job announcements.
  “”"
  Both the students and the people posting job announcements are being very short sighted — students should be trying to become spatial analysts, not ESRI button-pushers, and the folks hiring people should be looking for “smart people that get things done” not folks that know ArcGIS version whatever. I know I’d much rather hire someone that had hacked on an open-source project than someone that had only used ESRI products –even if I was hiring them to do stuff with ESRI.

  “”"
  On the other side of the stick it would be nice if opensource had more official training courses to change the perception of no help there.
  “”"
  You’re right that it’s only a perception. But I hope things like FOSS4G and osGeo, and OGS are helping with that.

  -Chris

• 19 Nitpick // Oct 5, 2007 at 5:06 pm

  @Chris:

  Not to nitpick, but QGIS does have a license, GPL. I think you are a tad confused on the point of FOSS.

• 20 Chris Barker // Oct 7, 2007 at 11:43 pm

  Sure, QGIS has the GPL license, and yes, I”m very familiar with the GPL and opther FOSS licenses, but let’s look at the original post:

  “has either an ArcInfo or QGIS license on their desk”

  The GPL is not something yo have on your machine like you have an ArcINfo licence. I felt putting them together in a sentence like that was misleading — yes you have to abide by the restrictions of the GPL if you want use QGIS but you don’t need to buy anything, negotiate with anyone, etc. In fact, the GPL puts no restrictions on your use and sharing of the software at all — except that if you distribute it, you must make the source available too. It is so different from a license from ESRI that I really thought a point needed to be made.

• 21 James Fee // Oct 8, 2007 at 7:00 am

  QGIS has a license Chris.

• 22 Lefty // Oct 8, 2007 at 7:07 am

  @Chris:

  QGIS is a licensed to use on the desktop. I’m not sure what you are getting at here. I think James’ post was quite clear. The juxtaposition of ArcInfo and QGIS is the whole point of what that company was doing.

• 23 Gretz // Oct 8, 2007 at 7:30 am

  I think if you take that quote Chris out of context you might have a point, but within the whole post I think its fine. QGIS is licensed by companies when they agree to the GPL. Just because you don’t pay, negotiate or sign a document, doesn’t mean you don’t have a license.

  Personally I wish James would post again. I don’t like that picture of that Mai Tai mocking me ever time I come here.

• 24 KJ // Oct 8, 2007 at 2:37 pm

  ok I’ll bite:

  “In fact, the Open Source solutions blow ESRI away when it comes to web mapping — I’ve NEVER seen an ArcIMS site that I liked. “

  … ok ArcIMS is pretty old though. What OpenSource web mapping thingy blows ESRI’s current modern products like ArcGIS Server, ArcGIS Explorer, ArcGIS Online, and ArcWeb Services with a Flex UI out of the water?

  I mean, there are some that blow some ESRI prices out of the water (well, unless you are talking about ArcGIS Explorer + SDK for a geobrowser, some of ArcGIS Online, and some uses of ArcWeb services which are free). I know there are open source things that cost way less than ArcGIS Server, but they also do way less. I would like to know which open source web mapping products blow ESRI’s modern stuff (not decade+ old ArcIMS) out of the water, so I can go check them out. I don’t think mapguide or mapserver quite quality as “blow out of the water”. Are there others?

• 25 Chris Barker // Oct 10, 2007 at 10:37 am

  OK - I haven’t seen the newer ESRI stuff. Maybe it’s fabulous.

  But as for Open Source options:

  First, the FOSS4G community is doing a pretty good job of not duplicating each-others effort too much — so there is no one-stop complete package. People are putting together the pieces from different projects.

  MapServer, for instance, isn’t really a server (though it has a cgi app in the standard distribution). It is mostly a map renderer — it can be used with any number of servers and clients. A number of other projects wrap MapServer with a variety of server and client solutions. MapServer keeps improving too — the latest release uses the AGG renderer for what should be very nice anti-aliased maps.

  The big news at this years FOSS4G is OpenLayers — it is a very cool web client package, and is begin used in more and more comprehensive systems. With it’s new client-side editing of features, and MetaCarta’s new FeatureServer, some very cool apps are going to be built.

  CampToCamp’s CartoWeb is very nice — a very easy, complete package for putting maps of your data up on the web. Their version 4 (not yet released) looks like it will be even better, based on OpenLayers, of course!

  As for MapGuide — I don’t know much about it, but I did see a demo of using it to pass “extruded” shape files to Google Earth for cool 3-d renderings of buildings - very nifty. And it clearly does lots more.

  MapGuide+Fusion looks very promising as well.

  Check out the FOSS4G web site — there is a LOT of cool stuff going on!

  As for the ESRI options — I’m no expert, and I’d like to hear more, but a few thoughts:

  ArcGIS Server: It looks powerful and flexible, but very heavy weight — SOAP, JAVA or .NET — lot’s more work that writing a a quick Python or PHP script.

  ArcGIS Explorer: not really a web app. And you can do much of this with QGIS or other open-source desktop apps, without the licensing and platform limitations. The key to Open Source is freedom — not price. Whether that matters to you for a given application is up to you.

  Arc GIS Online — this does looks pretty promising — obviously an answer to Google Maps and Google Earth (which aren’t Open Source either). NASA’s World Wind does some of this, but it’s not up to Google Earth standards (yet!).

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