James Fee GIS Blog

31 responses so far ↓

• 1 ChrisW // Jun 30, 2008 at 9:45 am

  Seems to be a bit of a running sore here - all those nasty other people doing stuff that GIS professionals should be doing, huh?

  (Except for GIS blogs, of course, for which we accept no substitute!)

  But if the other guys can do this stuff, I guess you need to be able to show the customers why they still need a GIS professional instead.

  If (as I’m sure most GIS professionals would claim) the other guys can’t do this stuff - at least not properly, then as a profession you need to be able to show the customers why this is the case.

  Either way, I think you need to get yourselves organised, guys …

• 2 Adena Schutzberg // Jun 30, 2008 at 10:01 am

  James,

  I didn’t say, nor did Mr. Gibson in the quote, that the article was provided to an agency by the magazine. I don’t know how that happened. Also, Mr. Gibson states that a company withdrew the article, not the the magazine decided not to publish it.

  I just want to be clear about the facts as I know them. I hope Mr. Gibson can provide more details.

  I apologize if my discussion of the matter was not clear.

  Adena

• 3 Andrew B // Jun 30, 2008 at 10:21 am

  ChrisW, I think you missed the point. It’s not that GIS professionals are claiming that someone else is doing work that they should be doing. It’s that surveyors are claiming that GIS professionals are doing work that surveyors should do- exclusing to them by very powerful surveying licensure laws.

• 4 JW // Jun 30, 2008 at 1:02 pm

  @ChrisW

  We are, although in the IEEE sense and not the antiquated state by state board process like surveyors.

  http://www.gisci.org

  It would do people in GIS field well to get their GISP certification now. The grandfathering provision ends this year. Their certification process really separates the men from the boys.

• 5 James Fee // Jun 30, 2008 at 1:44 pm

  @Adena: Just reading between the lines, please let everyone know if you learn more.

• 6 Dan S. // Jun 30, 2008 at 2:31 pm

  Sounds like someone has a case of hypersensitive risk management over the issues raised by the MAPPS lawsuit.

  (Unfortunately I couldn’t find a real handy overview in my first 10 seconds of googling, so y’all will have to search yourselves for authoritative details. My off-the-cuff understanding was that a bunch of surveyors’ associations sued the feds for using unlicensed GIS contractors for work that should have been restricted to licensed surveyors. I don’t know if the case decided where the line between license-required surveying ends and GIS work begins, although there was a ruling against the surveyors (who were seeking pretty much all mapping activities to be defined as ’surveying’)).

• 7 Roger Hart // Jun 30, 2008 at 7:25 pm

  Don’t judge land surveyors by the people on state licensing boards. Like most things involving the government they tend to be way behind the times.

  I don’t think this has anything to do with the MAPPS suit. It actually has more to do with the “ExpressMap” a title company has been selling as a survey. In that instance First American Title is taking aerials overlayed with parcel shape files and selling them as a property survey. That’s not surveyor’s protecting their turf, that’s calling the ExpressMap what it is: a fraud.

  Personally I’ve never come across a GIS professional that didn’t know and appreciate the difference between GIS and land surveying.

• 8 ChrisW // Jul 1, 2008 at 3:11 am

  @JW: Thanks for the link to GISCI. As for “grandfathering” (no women in GIS, then?), isn’t there a nasty wrinkle hidden in this process? You can qualify now based solely on (lots of) relevant experience even if you have no formal GIS qualifications. But in 5 years time you have to re-certify against the same rules as everybody else, where “you must apply and meet the minimum re-certification requirements just as those who are certified under the regular process”. This includes a minimum of 30 points for GIS qualifications. So it would appear all those “grandfathers” have 5 years to get their paper qualifications in order. Or am I missing something? How long does it take to qualify as a surveyor, anyway? :-))

• 9 JW // Jul 1, 2008 at 5:03 am

  The requalification points are the same and definitely attainable as someone who got initially certified with paper qualifications. To requal you need to take certain continuing ed classes (just like everyone else) and make certain industry contributions (just like everyone else). Nothing bad or unfair about it.

• 10 Kerry // Jul 1, 2008 at 11:00 am

  Remember, surveyors (along with engineers, architects, geologists and the like), are licensed to practice. They have a LEGAL obligation to practice in the public’s well being.
  The GISP is a certification and to me does not really hold much water. It’s better than nothing and I know there are many debates out there about other alternatives or giving the GISP more ‘teeth’.
  I’ve had my GISP app 95% filled out for 3 years…. probably have to do it all over now.

• 11 John from Jerzee // Jul 1, 2008 at 12:25 pm

  Why not take an aerial and overlay parcel shapefile. It would tell me the same damn thing the survey did! I still can’t stop my jerk neighbor from extending his fence onto my property. Accuracy is the most over-rated term in Mapping (IMHO).

  Lets face it! all you GISP haters are cheap and can’t get your hand in your pocket for the $250 thats the real reason my colleagues aren’t becoming GISP’s Lastly, ‘Grandfathering’ is a term, Mr. hyper-sensitive PC person.

• 12 ChrisW // Jul 1, 2008 at 12:48 pm

  John: “Lastly, ‘Grandfathering’ is a term, Mr. hyper-sensitive PC person.”

  Indeed. I can think of a few others, as it happens. And who are the “GISP haters” anyway, Mr Paranoid?

  JW: Thanks for the clarification.

• 13 Kerry // Jul 1, 2008 at 1:05 pm

  @John
  I’m not so much cheap as lazy. Besides my firm will pay for it.
  I work for an engineering firm and the more intitials behind my name the better. For that reason alone I ought to get off my butt and finish the application.

  And in the spirit of full disclosure I am a licensed geologist.
  (Sorry for going off subject!)

  p.s. Vizzini’s “Inconceivable!” got me into this! Love that movie!

• 14 peanut // Jul 1, 2008 at 5:31 pm

  The whole GISP thing really bothers me. I can definitely meet the qualifications to get certified, but the way I look at it getting certified just means I can jump through a bunch of hoops.

  It doesn’t make me a better GIS professional.

• 15 Adena Schutzberg // Jul 2, 2008 at 12:04 pm

  @James. Mr. Gibson responded on APB.
  http://apb.directionsmag.com/archives/4447-Update-State-Licensing-Board-Censors-GIS-Article.html#c8159

• 16 Lefty // Jul 2, 2008 at 1:58 pm

  Trust no one with a PE after their name!

• 17 Dave Smith // Jul 3, 2008 at 8:47 am

  Having not seen the article, it’s difficult to comment on its content. However, that said, states’ Land Surveying Practice Acts define what constitutes surveying, and what activities can only be performed by licensed land surveyors. It’s not up to Boards of Registration - their role is to interpret the law. And if activity is ongoing by unlicensed individuals which they determine to constitute unlicensed practice, they do indeed typically have legal authority to pursue sanctions against unlicensed practitioners.

  Typically, cadastral work, identifying property boundaries based on interpretation of evidence, jurisdictional boundaries and things of that nature fall under the purview of land surveying. Beyond that, other activities may or may not considered land surveying - it varies by state.

  Speaking as a surveyor, the area that concerns me the most is tax mapping offices, which have on occasion overstepped their bounds, making or participating in determinations based on property boundary (such as zoning issues), preparing descriptions, and other activities, based on GIS data and/or photointerpolation of fencelines and other sorts of activities.

• 18 Kyle // Jul 3, 2008 at 3:14 pm

  I think there are many things a GISP should learn about surveying, just as it benefits a surveyor to learn a GIS. A GIS person should be able to enter data though COGO using bearing and distance, close a traverse, find section corners, quarter quarter section corners, and know how to use datums and projections, and the basics of the NGS benchmark system.

  A surveyor should know basic GIS, like how to take points and make a projected shapefile or cross sections, as well as know how to set up a CORS reference station, use OPUS, find a radio beacon or set up an RTK network, and a little more about error analysis.

  Any fool can pick up a Trimble 5800 RTK and buy ArcInfo and start georeferencing images to the wrong coordinate systems or whatnot. I’d trust a GISP to make me some maps with contour elevations from a DEM, and a surveyor to find me the exact coordinate in the field. Having both skills would be nice, because as easy as it should be, the two working together with some knowledge of the other’s methods helps a lot. Few people I have met have the skills and knowledge to be reliable at both Surveying and GIS.

• 19 Joseph Wallis // Jul 4, 2008 at 12:36 pm

  @peanut

  you are totally missing the boat. Every engineer that graduates college probably knows their stuff, but they don’t automatically get a PE behind their name. The whole point of certification is to jump through hoops and prove your stuff. If I have two resumes in front of me and one says GISP and the other does not, it means that one guy has proved himself…the other guy maybe, maybe not.

  and Lefty, if you really mean what you said, then you are basically discrediting IEEE…..and that is sad actually.

• 20 Dave Smith // Jul 5, 2008 at 6:47 am

  The PE typically requires a combination of education, experience, and passing examinations. Graduates of a four-year ABET-accredited engineering program must pass a Fundamentals of Engineering examination, which covers a breadth of engineering topics, from statics and mechanics, to hydraulics, to electrical engineering. After successfully passing their FE, they become an engineer intern or engineer-in-training (EIT), and only then does their qualifying experience begin to accrue. After four years of progressive design experience where the individual takes responsible charge under the supervision of a licensed PE, the EIT is eligible to take the Principles and Practice of Engineering exam, which covers engineering depth within their field of practice (e.g. environmental, civil, mechanical).

  On passing, the candidate can become a PE, which denotes a minimal level of competence to practice engineering. After this, the PE must renew his license every 2 years - other emergent trends include discussion of a Bachelors’ + 30 credits or M.S./M.Eng. for minimum education and continuing education requirements.

  GISP on the other hand is far less rigorous, but ironically far more costly to register and renew.

• 21 Joseph Wallis // Jul 5, 2008 at 12:34 pm

  well, GISCI doesn’t have an examination (yet). Also, there is no requirement for coming from an accredited institution because..well, there is no GIS acccreditation for GIS…probably because a vast majority of institutions lack “GIS degrees”. I do commend GISCI for trying to fill in the gaps though. Someone has to start somwehere.

  I’m not sure where you get your costs for GISP from, but it is every 5 years, and its only $250. That is dirt cheap compared to other professions.

• 22 Dave Smith // Jul 5, 2008 at 5:24 pm

  @Joseph Wallis: I’m not sure where GISCI did their research to arrive at the conclusion $250 would be “dirt cheap” compared to other professions - Here in Pennsylvania, cost to renew a PE or PLS license is just $50 every two years. And that’s _after_ the recent price increase.

• 23 ChrisW // Jul 6, 2008 at 2:50 am

  I’m interested in what you GIS professionals expect to gain from the GISP certification process. I’m new to GIS, and have no plans to call myself a “GIS professional” until I’ve gained a few years of experience and extra skills in GIS roles, and I’m in the UK anyway so I have no special axe to grind re the GISCI GISP programme. FWIW, I think the GISCI approach looks like a reasonable compromise - it is challenging enough to be worth something, but still achievable for skilled people working in what seems to be a very varied profession. At least it’s given me some ideas about what I need to be learning over the next few years.

  But what is “GIS” in this context, and is it really a “profession” anyway?

  Is there a common set of skills a GISP should know, and what are they? If you ask different GIS people, do you get different answers? Cartographers might emphasise skills in map-making based on cartographic principles and best use of the available tools: the “G” in GIS. But GISCI classes these as Tier II skills (doesn’t even mention the word cartography) and actually gives greater recognition to Tier I skills in GIS analysis and application development - the “IS” in GIS. As an ex-IT person this is good news for me, but cartographically oriented GISPs clearly resent this intrusion into their space by “unqualified” outsiders.

  Can you really define a “GIS profession” widely enough to include the different areas of GIS, from cartography for publications through image analysis and planetary science to the more professional end of the neo-geo mashup brigade? Can you still exclude the “unqualified” outsiders?

  What is the purpose of GISP certification? Is there pressure to establish some kind of professional liability - like the ability to sue an accountant/doctor/surveyor/engineer if they screw up - so that GIS people would want to gain GISP status in order to get professional indemnity insurance, say?

  Or is it like the general IT professional certification schemes, where it is more about establishing a broad basis of what an “IT professional” might reasonably be expected to know, and giving individuals a useful extra acronym for their resumes? One problem there is that IT is so broad a category that the requirements become arbitrary in relation to specific roles - how much should a web-programmer know or care about compiler design? How much should a spatial database developer know about cartographic design, when the spatial data may never actually be output into maps?

  For the customer looking for specific GIS skills, does GISP status really help, or would they prefer to look for tool-specific experience/certification e.g. ESRI ArcGIS? That’s what happens in IT e.g. employers might look for an IT-related degree, but I have never seen a job requiring BCS certification (although it might well help your job application), because employers are more interested in particular skills, not certificates.

  Or is GISP certification just about preserving jobs for the boys, fencing out the competition in a rapidly expanding area of GIS-related activity and emerging technology?

  OK, over to you. Does “GIS” really exist as a profession, what are the things that “GIS professionals” supposedly have in common, and how does this fit the huge range of activities that - to an ignorant newbie (or a potential customer) - might seem to qualify as “GIS”?

• 24 ChrisW // Jul 6, 2008 at 3:45 am

  One more “waffer-thin” question on GISP: Who is actually driving the push for certification, and why? Is it the “GIS profession”, the GIS certification bodies themselves, or the customers for GIS services? Unless customers are involved, isn’t there a risk of the whole thing becoming a self-serving bureaucratic process?

• 25 Dave Smith // Jul 6, 2008 at 10:10 am

  @ChrisW Good questions - I have been pondering them myself. I have a degree with its focus on GIS, Remote Sensing and Cartography, and experience in GIS going back to the late 1980s - but no pressing urge or desire to get certified as a GISP. I don’t yet see any compelling reasons. Seems mainly to be a self-propagating moneymaker for GISCI.

• 26 Joseph Wallis // Jul 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm

  @Dave Smith

  For starters, a PMP (Project Management Professional) is $600.

  Lots of specialized certifications like MCSEs can run into the $1000s.

• 27 ChrisW // Jul 7, 2008 at 2:17 am

  Hi Joseph,

  Perhaps the point is that PMP or MCSE qualifications tell an employer that you know something specific (well, in theory at least) that may be generally applicable. GISP status seems to be more about knowing the general field of GIS, rather than specific applications (i.e. just like a relevant degree plus experience in other words). But do employers look for generic GISPs, or do they look for a GISP to manage a project using PMP, or a GISP to implement some GIS application based on Microsoft .NET, for example?

• 28 MicahWilli // Jul 7, 2008 at 7:38 am

  One surveyor told me GIS stands for “Get It Surveyed”.

  I have no problems with Surveyors, i know quite a few. Those that have openly accepted GIS are not threatened. Others, however, look from the outside in are very skeptical.

  I think the point is that we as GIS professionals (not strictly GISPs) strive to be the flexible ones in this game. It’s like working with IT folks. We have to know that we’re the new kids on the block. Surveying has been around for a while, like 700 years. GIS will never replace it. honestly. But if we come at this with an ‘Us vs. Them’ attitude that will only propagate the same defensiveness from the surveying community.

  At the risk of sounding like a coom-by-ya nutcase, is there any way we can consider their point?

• 29 JW // Jul 7, 2008 at 9:11 am

  ChrisW:

  That’s why I said the process is more like getting a PE. I was only comparing the pricing to PMP and MSCE….has nothing to do with the process itself. Let’s not dwell over straw men here.

• 30 Kyle // Jul 7, 2008 at 12:15 pm

  the GISP was originally pushed by GISCI, as a self serving organization.

  I’m also an Engineer Intern, haven’t taken the PE yet. I have to learn a lot in order to prove (to myself) full competency in engineering. Maybe I could pass the PE Exam, but it’s about competence and liability and public safety and trust.

  I’m also a CFM, which requires a (relatively easy) test. It’s relatively easy if you ever deal with floodplain management.

  I’m a GISP because I have lots of experience and it was relatively easy for me to prove my GIS competency, and my corp paid for it. You can drop me into any situation, a hurricane response, war, disaster, (or just in my cubicle) and I’ll be fully comfortable providing GIS support at all levels, from basic cartography to IT support & data management and analysis. I have the experience and know what I am doing well enough to instruct others what to do and provide people with information even if they don’t know what they need or what to ask for.

  At least with GISCI they have their organization together do a good job with the website and marketing explaining what a GISP is and why it’s good to have. A simple test would be good. The following should be basic skills that a GISP should be able to communicate about:

  find lat and long coords on a map with lat long tics.

  convert DMS to DD and vice versa

  show basic understanding of coordinate systems and projections

  show basic spatial thinking ability

  find a tree or a swimming pool in an aerial photo

  explain points, lines and polys and how they might be used to represent real world objects like wells, streets, and parks.

  What I am saying is prove you have learned - and retained - these basic things in your 5-10 years of experience. If there are GISP’s out there that can’t explain these basic things, and I hope there aren’t, then it doesn’t do me a lot of good to be a GISP.

• 31 Office with a view // Jul 24, 2008 at 5:09 pm

  Frankly, I’m a bit tired of the whole ‘GIS’ term. As GE, VE and the like improve their offerings to perform spatial analyses and generate nice cartography–and they WILL. Do you think they’re going to slap a GIS label on their software? Of course not.

  Databases are becoming more spatially enabled and do all sorts of complex spatial and network analyses in the kernel. Should we now start calling Oracle or SQL Server a GIS? At what point does a spatial database, a web service producing/consuming the data, and a brower-based presentation framework become a GIS?

  I think people in our profession see ESRI as GIS and GIS as ESRI. Maybe there are some software vendors who share that same opinion?

  If the term GIS goes away in perference to terms like ’spatial’, ‘geospatial’ or ‘location based’ I wouldn’t be disappointed.

  I know this thread is a bit off topic…sorry.

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