James Fee GIS Blog

55 responses so far ↓

• 1 Dave // Dec 17, 2007 at 9:40 pm

  Thanks for the info James.

  Although not suprising, requiring a license from ESRI to access the full power of your spatially enabled DBMS is lame. The only thing I can think is that they support the MSSQL Spatial data type, but it’s still in the GDB schema - ergo you are paying for the stored procs.

  Personally I think they should draw the licensing line at versioning - if you want versioning - you pay. If not, you have non-versioned editing out of the box. But hey - we’ll see what shakes out.

  Dave

• 2 mdsumner // Dec 18, 2007 at 3:49 am

  I’m sort of shocked there are new features: does this happen a lot?

• 3 Kirk // Dec 18, 2007 at 7:32 am

  Thanks for posting this James!

  When you say “SQL Server 2008 Spatial will be fully supported when Microsoft releases final version of SQL Server 2008″ does this imply that until the final release there will be some level of support that is perhaps a bit less than “fully”.

  I sure would like to hear more on what “fully” means. I heard from Microsoft that while Linq doesn’t support spatial types, it will later at some point. Any update on that would be helpful too.

  Kirk

• 4 Jojo // Dec 18, 2007 at 7:47 am

  Wow. Hey Summer: Now it looks like you won’t need Manifold afterall - ESRI will allow direct connection to SQLServer 2008, AND support 64-bit.

  Guess the transition wasn’t too hard afterall

  I’d say Manifold is now the one looking alittle obsolete

• 5 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:19 am

  @Kirk: I guess I was saying that ESRI supports connecting to databases, but full spatial support won’t come until later….

• 6 adam // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:31 am

  “ArcGIS Server Enterprise will support 64bit processors. This is only the spatial database application server and not the AGS Basic, Standard and Advanced product.”

  So is this the same as that bait and switch announcement we heard earlier about “supporting” 64-bit? Can the software actually utilize 64-bit or is just certified to run in that environment? Just curious…

• 7 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:35 am

  @adam: It will actually be 64bit. Its the “traditional” ArcGIS Server stuff that won’t be 64-bit until at least 10.x. The spatial database engine will be 64-bit.

• 8 adam // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:43 am

  That’s good to hear. Thanks!

  Too bad that non-Enterprise users have to wait though.

• 9 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:47 am

  Well the whole ArcMap/ArcCatalog/ArcGIS Server (Basic/Standard/Advanced) will come in time. For now running a 64bit RDBMS and the 64bit ESRI database engine together on a 64bit server is very welcomed as more company transition to the 64-bit server. Desktop 64-bit is probably less of an issue, but since Server and Desktop are so intertwined, you might as well migrate both at the same time.

• 10 sorta cool // Dec 18, 2007 at 8:56 am

  @jojo
  Manifold obsolete? Doubt it.

  I actually think this is cool. This *should* mean that both Manifold and ESRI users can connect to and use the same database, at least to some degree. And if Autodesk gets their stuff figured out… To me, THAT would be a great thing.

• 11 adam // Dec 18, 2007 at 9:25 am

  And I’m definitely one of those welcoming it. Especially after having successful enterprise apps running with the only complaint being performance/speed. Hopefully this will help.

  The main thing that drives me crazy w/ Desktop is the slow drawing speed.

• 12 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 9:31 am

  ArcGIS 10 will support better graphics cards. I think drawing speed is one of the bigger features of v10 for most users.

• 13 AC // Dec 18, 2007 at 10:02 am

  What does this mean for users who currently have ArcSDE maintenance?

• 14 Lefty // Dec 18, 2007 at 10:04 am

  You’ll get 9.3 when it is released.

• 15 RonV // Dec 18, 2007 at 10:34 am

  Anyone know when Microsoft will support common raster formats?

• 16 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 10:40 am

  Not for a while from I’ve heard RonV….

• 17 KJ // Dec 18, 2007 at 11:58 am

  @sorta cool

  “This *should* mean that both Manifold and ESRI users can connect to and use the same database”

  … you already can connect both to ESRI geodatabase. But one problem [for me] is that both have different cartographic rendering, so even though the data underneath is the same, your users will look at one, and then the other and say “hey, that ain’t the same stuff”, leading you to spend days, weeks, months, $$$, trying to get the data to render the same way in ESRI and Manifold. So it made it hard for me to put an ArcGIS Engine app on desktops (because ArcGIS Engine can cost less than Manifold runtime), but a manifold IMS app on the server (because manifold can be cheaper for serving web apps), inside the same enterprise. So the real world practical operability of “crossing the streams” might be more difficult than you think once you get right down to the nitty gritty of actually deploying it.

• 18 Gady // Dec 18, 2007 at 12:36 pm

  Will ArcGIS Server Enterprise be necessary for unlimited direct connections to SQL Server Spatial (not Express version)?

• 19 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 12:38 pm

  Yes, you need ArcGIS Server Enterprise.

• 20 blizzardice // Dec 18, 2007 at 12:50 pm

  So what will the desktop users need? Basically I am stuck in sql express?

• 21 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 12:52 pm

  What did you do at 9.2 and SQL Server 2005/2000?

  Nothing has changed here.

• 22 sorta cool // Dec 18, 2007 at 3:42 pm

  @KJ

  True enough. I should have clarified that I meant in more of an “open” context and not within ESRI’s geodatabase format. As well, we are dealing with clients, not ourselves;-)

  We have quite a few clients who are just starting to get into the “GIS game” and ESRI is not an option in the here and now - but they like to keep their options open. This would be ideal as those that have not gone with a hosted solution usually get Manifold; in turn, if they got enough $$ and a reason, they could easily switch to ESRI (or something else) if they wanted to.

  Some of our other clients are using Manifold and/or ESRI and they are starting to make the leap to a spatially enabled, database centric model. This should allow for an easier time for them as well.

  As mentioned - hopefully Autodesk will jump on the MSSQL2008 bandwagon so then we can bring them into the mix as well and then I think the overall puzzel will be complete:-)

• 23 Berik Davies // Dec 19, 2007 at 3:28 am

  Interesting that many of the comments above relate to the ‘openess’ of MS SQL Server 2008 Spatial.

  I certainly welcome this development from MS (and ESRI’s limited support for it), but did the same people get all excited about Oracle Spatial and SDO_GEOM too ?

  There is an exisiting solution (Oracle Spatial) whereby clients from multiple vendors can read a single spatial store, and yes, ESRI users will need to use ArcSDE.

  With regard to the ‘64bit processor support’, then great, but clarity is also needed on 64bit OS support too - for example, RedHat Linux 64bit.

  It’s now virtually impossible to purchase an Enterprise class server without a 64bit proc and OS - ESRI really need to keep on the ball with this.

  Likewise, with 64bit proc’s and OS’s on the desktop (XP64 and Vista 64) - ESRI apps (e.g. ArcGIS desktop) running as true 64bit apps would be nice (yes, lots of work for the boys and girls in Redlands), but for now, I’d even settle for them running as 32bit apps certified to run on a 64bit OS.

• 24 Neil // Dec 19, 2007 at 7:12 am

  James,

  Is the ArcSDE that is riding into the sunset ArcSDE the product (the separately licensed thing) or ArcSDE the technology (the service, command line apps, C/java API).

  Neil

• 25 James Fee // Dec 19, 2007 at 7:21 am

  ArcSDE the product name Neil. The technology will be referred to ArcGIS Server Enterprise or Workgroup.

• 26 Tripp Corbin // Dec 19, 2007 at 7:34 am

  Great information. Thanks for posting it.

• 27 Jason Boitson // Dec 19, 2007 at 8:20 am

  is the install of ArcSDE technology going to be the same? is it still going to be separate? currently we have a separate server for ArcSDE and ArcGIS Server…

• 28 James Fee // Dec 19, 2007 at 9:46 am

  9.3 beta isn’t out yet and probably won’t be until a month or so before the Dev Summit (think Feb). I would assume when you put in the ArcGIS Server disk you pick the version you want:

  ArcGIS Server Basic Workstation Workgroup
  ArcGIS Server Basic Enterprise
  ArcGIS Server Standard Workstation Workgroup
  ArcGIS Server Standard Enterprise
  ArcGIS Server Advanced Workstation Workgroup
  ArcGIS Server Advanced Enterprise

• 29 Leandro // Dec 19, 2007 at 9:53 am

  James, when you say Workstation…Do you mean Workgroup?

• 30 James Fee // Dec 19, 2007 at 9:54 am

  Yes I did… Thanks Leandro…

• 31 Kirk // Dec 19, 2007 at 10:23 am

  Hi James -

  I wonder how ESRI measures how many developers are developing with ArcEngine vs. ArcGIS Server. Currently there is no EDN subscription level that allows you to purchase Engine without Server. Seems like if ESRI really wanted to know how many developers are writing Server apps they would provide finer grained subscription levels, perhaps to the point of even tracking what level of Server is being used.

  Have you heard anything new about EDN?

  Kirk

• 32 Mark // Dec 19, 2007 at 10:51 am

  @Kirk

  IMO the ESRI marketing team is more interested in padding their Server developers stats than offering their customers those options.

  Similarly, by lumping SDE in with Server, they can now claim in their marketing that their entire SDE installed base are Server “users”. And if you go by your maintenance quote, you’re not even an ArcIMS user anymore….

• 33 Cellulose // Dec 19, 2007 at 12:34 pm

  @Kirk

  I would expect they gauge those stats based on the number of runtime licenses they sell for Engine vs. Server, as well as the amount of development-related service calls they get.

  They can also gauge development based on the number of EDN license-requests they get. When you use EDN, you have to generate license files for each product you’re using…

• 34 James Fee // Dec 19, 2007 at 12:59 pm

  @Kirk: I assume you mean an Engine Developer seat that is cheaper than the $1,500?

• 35 Tim Maddle // Dec 19, 2007 at 5:54 pm

  I’ve learned not to get too excited when ESRI announces this feature or that feature, because it seems like the tools that would help me are in the version that we don’t have and can’t afford the upgrade. There was a note on the ESRI site that image server will become part of AGS in 9.3, but I’m betting it will be for the Advanced product, while my organization has Standard.

  Of note, one of the presentations from the 2007 UC mentioned that the st_geometry, which allows spatial SQL against the SDE, was going to be the default with 9.3. I wonder if that is still the plan.

• 36 Cellulose // Dec 19, 2007 at 5:59 pm

  I’ve been in contact with a few developers at ESRI and they’ve said that the ST_GEOMETRY is still the plan.

• 37 Sarel // Dec 19, 2007 at 10:19 pm

  Are You Kidding Me!!!!!

  These new version are very nice and all but wait before you dig deeper into your pocket to pay more for ESRI “newer, better, improved” products.

  Worked on a project at home last night using Arc9.2, took the same project (.mxd) to work and tried to open it on Arc9.1 (ya, ya with the same shapefiles) — guese what?? the following message appeared and I nearly spilled my boiling hot coffee all over my chest reading it…..
  “Opening the selected ArcMap document Failed. This map document was saved using a newer version of ArcGIS”—shivver me timbers.

• 38 Kevin // Dec 19, 2007 at 10:36 pm

  And thats what “file -> save as -> 9.0/9.1″ is used for.

• 39 Sarel // Dec 19, 2007 at 11:41 pm

  You mean ->save a copy->8.3/9.0/9.1, will have to plan my week ahead so I will have copies for each system and then to update the newer system once complete with the old and remember what version is in which office. I think I need a year planner just to get my work done in Arc.

• 40 Tink // Dec 20, 2007 at 6:53 am

  Im a little confused about the ArcSDE personal edition in 9.2, will I suddenly be stuck in ArcGIS server personal edition too?

• 41 Kirk // Dec 20, 2007 at 7:23 am

  @James

  I’m not proposing any particular price for ArcEngine, just that ESRI should bundle it in a way to more accurately gauge adoption. There are likely many Server Developers who do not use ArcEngine and vice versa. Once it’s granular, ESRI could change pricing to reflect market realities.

  I suspect a non-ESRI equivalent to geodatabase versioning will appear at some point on top of SqlServer2008 spatial, especially once Linq supports spatial types. If a developer is using ArcEngine to develop a frontend to something like this it wouldn’t make sense for ESRI to count them as a loyal Server developer.

  Kirk

• 42 Kirk // Dec 20, 2007 at 12:09 pm

  @Cellulose

  I can’t remember for sure, but when I requested my keycodes through EDN, I think it let me get all the keycodes for which I was authorized, without checking to see if I had actually installed the software.

• 43 Cellulose // Dec 20, 2007 at 2:51 pm

  @Kirk
  Yes, you are correct.

  I personally request licenses for products as I need them. I also request different combinations of licenses to simulate runtime environments.

  Personally, I don’t think ESRI really cares how many people are developing for server–they only care how many Server licenses are sold. This is no different than other major software companies like Oracle and Microsoft.

• 44 J Wallis // Dec 21, 2007 at 7:11 am

  Man, I hate diving into a thread this late….but I still can’t figure out what or how ESRI can limit your connects directly between ArcGIS Desktop and SQL Server? It said that for unlimited connects that you’d need ArcGIS Server Enterprise. That indicates to me that some place ESRI has implemented some sort of gatekeeping. MSSQL doesn’t care what (or how many) is connecting to you if you are running CPU licensing.

• 45 Cellulose // Dec 21, 2007 at 8:53 am

  It could just be a licensing restriction. They have some limits on database size that can be trivially bypassed (and ESRI will even tell you how to do it). That doesn’t mean it’s allowed by your license.

  Plus–creating some kind of client-counting scheme would be fairly easy. If every client is guaranteed to be ArcGIS, a shared table can keep such information.

• 46 James Fee // Dec 21, 2007 at 9:02 am

  Someone will create a way to use Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Spatial and ArcGIS without SDE.

  No pressure on Brian Flood, but when will we see Arc2SQL?

• 47 Bill // Dec 21, 2007 at 6:25 pm

  We’ve been talking about it with zigGIS. It really wouldn’t be that much of a stretch to convert the current code. It’s more of a time issue.

• 48 J. Brown // Jul 15, 2008 at 8:36 am

  “ArcGIS supports older versions of the Geodatabase. At 9.3, ArcGIS can connect and create geodatabases (personal, file) back to 9.0.” Where is the supporting information for this feature, particularly “create” on the ESRI website. I have been unable to find conclusive evidence this functionality exists.

• 49 James Fee // Jul 15, 2008 at 8:43 am

  @J. Brown:
  http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/07/09/now-you-can-have-direct-connections-to-arcsde-geodatabases/

• 50 J. Brown // Jul 15, 2008 at 8:48 am

  Yes, I can find documentation that ArcGIS 9.3 supports direct connect for all 9.x products. The post I was questioning was, “At 9.3, ArcGIS can connect and create geodatabases (personal, file) back to 9.0″

• 51 James Fee // Jul 15, 2008 at 9:08 am

  Yes it can create older version of the Geodatabase.

• 52 Chris M // Jul 15, 2008 at 12:25 pm

  I heard that ArcGIS Server (SDE) should support MYSQL with the release of SP1? Does anyone know if this is still the case or if it has been pushed back to another release?

• 53 James Fee // Jul 15, 2008 at 12:41 pm

  The last time I had talks with folks at ESRI about this, they said MySQL was a very long way off. I can’t imagine that has changed since then. I suspect it will probably never be supported.

• 54 Chris M // Jul 15, 2008 at 1:29 pm

  I had heard this from several different ESRI trainers back in Jan/Feb of this year. They talked as though it was inevitable and if not SP1 then surely SP2. Well I guess I will be taking a closer look at Postgre SQL, I like the idea of open source but also like the idea of structured support and MySQL seems to have happily married the two.

• 55 Lefty // Jul 15, 2008 at 2:13 pm

  @Chris M: You’ll learn really quick that ESRI trainers know zip about future support. I’ve been told by someone at ESRI I trust that they only plan to “keep looking at mySQL support” at this time.

  As with anything, if an important client of ESRI’s wants MYSQL support, then it will happen. Until then Postgresql support is all we’ll be looking at.

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