Open Thread

December 10th, 2007 · 80 Comments · GIS

I’m traveling this week so its seems like a great time to have another open thread. Enjoy…..

The Editor is out this week

Tags:

80 responses so far ↓

1 Lefty // Dec 10, 2007 at 6:51 am

So what is the spin this week on SQL Server 2008 Spatial support with ArcGIS?

Do you need ArcSDE or not?
2 Jud Aster // Dec 10, 2007 at 6:57 am

Anyone here using Image Server orthophoto extension? We plan to purchase some orthophoto software…
3 Larry Geiger // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:10 am

Ah, the Spider is afoot!!
4 Mellisa Maples // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:25 am

Why is ESRI so secretive? I just want to know about their products and their reps are always trying the jedi mind trick on me. Why is it so hard for ESRI to be open?
5 Kipter Uh // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:26 am

So what are you up to this week James? Converting ESRI customers to open source?
6 anon // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:31 am

So how do I use the new OpenAerialMap in ArcGIS? I was looking for a WMS service, but didn’t see one. I assume I can just throw that in the back of my map and use it like I want?
7 oakfish // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:33 am

@Mellisa

Amen to that. It’s always difficult to get a straight answer. It’s almost like they just haven’t been given all of the information from Redlands. That company is a mess.
8 ebp // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:37 am

Neogeography.

Why debate as to whether or not it’s GIS?

Do ESRI tools support the neogeographer?
9 Matt // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:52 am

I’ll throw out a general question. Has anyone here successfully introduced open source-based GIS in their organization? Perhaps even pushing out the major players?

I’ve been using ESRI products for ~13 years but the explosion of open source software has even had me downloading and testing (e.g., MapWindow and Quantum). I’ve been pretty impressed with them to date.

Cheers,
-Matt
10 Jack Dangermond // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:56 am

I like cheese. A lot.
11 Bill P. // Dec 10, 2007 at 9:21 am

@anon

This might help
http://crschmidt.net/blog/archives/282/openaerialmap-using-with-other-tools/
12 oakfish // Dec 10, 2007 at 9:23 am

@Matt

I have not done so, but like you I’m curious if others have had success. I have enormous flexibility at my job and could use open source if I chose to. In the GIS world, though, I assume many environments have one key thing in common with my own. The map-makers themselves (as opposed to developers/DBAs like myself) don’t give a damn. They just need to crank out the maps and analysis. They don’t want ArcSDE to “go down” because the damn developers are playing with PostGIS or SQL Server 2008. The managers are all for saving the cost of ESRI software, so I am encouraged to make other solutions work. Lately, that has included Arc2Earth and Virtual Earth. But no open source exists in my environment other than SVN version control. Why? Because it takes too long and is disruptive for me to be playing around when there’s “real” work to be done.

I imagine that those of you who work for government and don’t have to bill your hours have a little more time to “play.” Unfortunately government workers are the ones who more often than not have a “locked down” environment. So they have the time, but not the opportunity.

Hinderances abound.
13 Dave Smith // Dec 10, 2007 at 10:00 am

Oakfish raises a good point - many people are busy enough with production and getting their day-to-day work done, to not have adequate time to devote to research and experimentation.

Whether OS or COTS (rather than singling out ESRI alone, because they all need to ramp up and keep up with the community) is unfortunately something that’s often driven by the enterprise… Managers don’t want to sacrifice prior technology investments, they don’t want to deal with learning curves for new products and technologies, and so on.

As such, the comfort level with what one already has, or has already developed and invested in, often exceeds the comfort level in new and emergent technologies.

I tend to think that nobody’s “paleo” by choice - it’s more a matter of Newton’s First Law - Inertia. A body in motion can more easily stay in motion. A body at rest tends to stay at rest.

And occasonally, you get the solid bump from the outside to set things in motion again.

If you think about it - GIS has had several “neo” moments and revolutions in the past as well. For a good read to put the whole “neo” versus “paleo” discussion into bigger perspective, Charting the Unknown: How Computer Mapping at Harvard Became GIS is an excellent book.
14 tom riddle // Dec 10, 2007 at 10:12 am

what, 13 comments and no mention of how Manifold is better than anyone else?
15 Jud Aster // Dec 10, 2007 at 11:01 am

Don’t worry, Dimitri will come soon with his Manifold marketing.
16 Sniper // Dec 10, 2007 at 11:05 am

@ tom riddle

I agree, this must be a new record!
17 Alvin // Dec 10, 2007 at 11:44 am

Yea what is it with ESRI? I can’t get a strait answer as well from anyone there. Here is what happens…

1. Alvin asks simple question to ESRI rep or ESRI dev.

2. ESRI rep or dev response with answer not at all related to what I asked.

3. Alvin asks the question again.

4. ESRI rep or dev doesn’t respond.

I mean what kind of service is that. Look I understand how ESRI has contacts with many companies, but these folks are getting old. Do you think when I take over my GIS group at my company in a couple years I’ll just go the status quo? Of course not, I’ll remember how ESRI treated me when I wasn’t “important”.
18 Darin // Dec 10, 2007 at 11:47 am

Interesting idea there Alvin. What happens as the ESRI old guard dies out and is replaced with folks who either have no idea who ESRI is (beyond that it is expensive) or who have been ignored and served horrible software all these years.

Damn right we are going to look in other directions. Me? I’d rather take the savings from our ESRI maintenance and apply it to better working conditions. Only a matter of time before I can make that happen.
19 KoS // Dec 10, 2007 at 12:01 pm

ASU still sucks prickly cactus %$^@……even with a bowl appreance.

KoS
20 ghandhi // Dec 10, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Does anyone ever focus on what ESRI does well?
21 RMcCulley // Dec 10, 2007 at 1:25 pm

@matt & oakfish

I’ve introduced a few open source app’s to our gis. We’ve not “pushed out” our existing gis though. We are using open source for additional functionality at a lower/no cost.

We’ve got mapscript/postgis based intranet map-app that generates basic maps for the non-gis users. We’re a small operation, and can’t afford ArcGIS Server or SDE, so this gives us that functionality for a lot less dollars.

We’ve got a QGIS/python application on a laptop for field reference. It’s hard to justify an ArcView license for looking at maps. Using the python bindings of QGIS, I’ve made map viewer that is really easy to use for the guys in the field to use.

I use QGIS on my desktop for maintaining the PostGIS data.
22 Matt // Dec 10, 2007 at 1:49 pm

@oakfish & RMcCulley

Thanks for your insights. We’re definitely an ESRI-shop where I work and I’m admittedly familiar with their products and how they’ve progressed over time. I have found a bit of time here and there to tinker with the open source offerings, but we’re not “pushing out” ESRI in any way at this point. It always pays to stay on top of changes and innovations in GIS software regardless of if they originate from the open source, low-cost, or web mash-up offerings. I’ve been experimenting with a little bit of each of these recently (Arc2Earth may be on my budget list for next year).

Since I work for a municipal government we’re always looking to save taxpayer monies wherever possible. If we could ever find semi-comparable products with lower maintenance costs we’d definitely give them a detailed examination…especially in the current economic climate we’re all experiencing.

On the web-side of things, we’re currently running intranet services only, but the mash-up phenomenon and Arc2Earth version 2 with the ability to bring 3d view and tiles into ArcGIS is very impressive. Externally, if the goal is to provide GIS data to your residents, then providing it in a format familiar to the masses (e.g,. Google Maps/MS Live Local) seems to be a cost effective method.
23 Kevin // Dec 10, 2007 at 2:18 pm

@ghandhi
Of course not, who would spend time reading something positive? I enjoy the comments here…it’s kind of like Fox or CNN news, you just get the one slanted side.
I know the old adage goes, for every person that complains there are probably another 10 who haven’t spoke up. I think the adage goes the other way as well, for every person who complains there are another 100 who spend more time working than complaining…

Some food for thought, when will college/university and other technical schools start teaching open source GIS solutions? Learning something in school and coming out to the workforce only to have 0 skills in open source would be kind of a bummer. I feel like if you want the world to switch to open source (and not the few on the bleeding edge) you’ll have to start them there at the beginning.
24 Simon // Dec 10, 2007 at 3:30 pm

Ive got a meeting with ESRI tommorow to discuss license options for ArcGIS Server (££££). Ive then got a meeting with the boss to discuss what the ESRI guy said and what alternatives. Main + points for getting AGS are that we are a consultancy and our major clients (Environment Agency for starters) are ESRI users and require ESRI solutions. However, from just reading this blog regularly (amongst others) it is interesting to see that people are shifting to ESRI alternatives.
If anyone has any material/valid points for me to take to tommorows meetings, lemme know.
25 Brian Johnson // Dec 10, 2007 at 4:03 pm

Anyone using ArcGIS SP4 yet?

We’ve installed it - and can no longer perform a ‘Select by location’ on more than 1 layer at a time….

Looks like a bug was entered at ESRI - ‘NIM013326′ - anyone else experience this?

http://forums.esri.com/Thread.asp?c=93&f=982&t=239704&mc=1
26 Matt Priour // Dec 10, 2007 at 4:06 pm

I’m currently helping to develop an OpenLayers based solution for a major transportation authority in a major EU country. Clearly $ is not the most important factor in this case, performance was. We want to display a map showing dynamic objects with positions and data updating every 15 seconds with google map style popups, map tips, and other web 2.0 map goodness. ESRI in US and that country couldn’t come up with an acceptable solution that had decent performance. OpenLayers fit the bill easily. With some of the extensions in the OpenLayers sandbox, we were able to leverage existing ArcGIS Server mapcache tiles & get all the web 2.0 map goodness we wanted. The other developer spearheading this project is trying to convince other government agencies in that country to give open source a try based on the results of this project.
27 George Lucas // Dec 10, 2007 at 4:11 pm

My dietician told me to lay off the Stinking Bishop.

Stinkin dietician
28 Karl Rove // Dec 10, 2007 at 4:59 pm

@ghandhi: I think James is about the most even handed blogger out there in regards to ESRI. He posts positive and negative. Sure it isn’t Kool aid, but it isn’t hating either.
29 KoS // Dec 10, 2007 at 6:23 pm

@kevin….

“Some food for thought, when will college/university and other technical schools start teaching open source GIS solutions?”

When more professors learn open source solutions and incorporate them into their lesson plans. From my experience, the professors I’ve seen generally teach what they were taught.

KoS
30 Ben R. // Dec 10, 2007 at 6:51 pm

Just chiming in to join with KoS regarding schools. ESRI’s marketing to universities combined with faculty that tend have limited GIS experience is the culprit. The youngest faculty, those who are almost always the most knowledgeable regarding GIS, are usually the ones vying for tenure and simply have too many obligations to go out and train themselves on open source or other alternative GIS software.
31 C3 // Dec 10, 2007 at 7:09 pm

@ Matt

We are likewise a local government fed up with ESRI nickel and diming. The running joke in our office is, “you’ll need an add-on for that”. As an alternative to Arc2Earth, we’ve used the City of Portland’s little ESRI add-on to export to .kmz for most of our data. We use open source GeoServer to push the big stuff like sewers and 2′ contours. Then we throw in a dash of live street closures (collaboratively updated through Google Maps) and 3D projects (built in Sketchup and AutoCad) and we’ve got a great way for people to access our data. So a little ESRI can go a long way. We’re still too chicken to ditch it all-together, but I’m sure that day’s coming.

Maybe this will give you some ideas: http://geoserver.cityofkokomo.org/cityofkokomo.kmz
32 artlembo // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:06 pm

From my experience, the professors I’ve seen generally teach what they were taught.

I’ve used ESRI software since 1983 (started with ESRI’s Automap II). My courses the last few years have focused on non-ESRI software - mostly Manifold, with particular emphasis on spatial SQL. This year I also introduced SQLServer for storing spatial data, and even taught a programming course where students programmed in VBScript and VB.NET.

Next semester I have 8 undergraduate students doing an independent study to evaluate Oracle Spatial, Microsoft SQLServer 2008, IBM DB2, and PostGIS as enterprise spatial databases (using the Express version). Its amazing what you can get good undergraduates to do

The results of that class will be something similar to the “How do I do that in ArcGIS/Manifold” document my students produced in 2005.

I have the luxury of doing this, as there are other faculty who teach more with ESRI software, so my stuff becomes interesting electives for the students. They really like it because we can explore some interesting ideas.

The students are now finishing up their final reports for the programming assignments. If people are interested, I can post a link to the final projects - some are quite good.
33 Vince // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:09 pm

Love these open threads James. There is so much good conversation in them. I learn so much from you blog, keep it up!
34 not quite open source... // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:21 pm

@Matt & oakfish

We haven’t (not are we trying to) pushed ESRI out and we still use it as it is part of our water modelling software. But for all of our actual GIS analysis, we use a combination of Manifold, open source (mainly for 3D and utility) and MS SQL Server - can’t wait for 2008:-) A couple of our clients have also switched over to Manifold, while a handful of others who are new to the GIS game (and therefore not part of the ESRI community already) are playing with various options such as Manifold, Cadcorp, QGIS and others.

We get lucky because we are an engineering company, who’s focus is on selling services, and not specific “solutions”. We try to be as open and agnostic to the client’s systems as possible. If they use ESRI, that’s fine. We can work with that even though we don’t use it in house. Oracle, MapInfo, Autodesk, whatever. We have a couple of ESRI floating around, and will purchase another or upgrade if we have to (we have the $$ to do so), but so far we haven’t had the need.
35 Matt Priour // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:23 pm

@artlembo
Wow! I WANT to see that document.
If it is anywhere near as good as your Manifold/ESRI document, it should be very useful.
36 Canuck // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:29 pm

When I first learned GIS, I learned on GRASS back in the mid 90’s. That was great for teaching the theory, and it did some great analysis for sure. But it was limited for sure in its capability, and outside of academia and the Army Corps, it had a limited user base. ArcInfo and related products seemed to do everything. AND it was supported. You want GRASS or other open source support, you will be going to a forum or listserv and hoping for the best. Hardly a good place to be in a production environment IMO.

If any of these open source products are successful, I can see them going the way of Linux - you’ll be paying one way or another.

I am not saying ESRI is perfect, but they are not horrible. And ESRI products will persist just like Microsoft Office does - sure open office is available but I don’t know anyone that uses it. And I don’t see PostGRESQL supplanting Oracle or SQL Server in the commercial realm anytime soon either.
37 not quite open source... // Dec 10, 2007 at 8:50 pm

@Canuck

Very good points. Quite valid.

However, I would argue that, while it may take time … if no one ever tries anything different you never know what might happen. I hear the % of Mac users is up;-)

On the subject of ESRI not being horrible, you’re correct again. My main objection is their prices and costing structure.
38 artlembo // Dec 11, 2007 at 5:24 am

Matt,

hopefully it will be out in May when the semester ends. These are undergraduates where before it was a mixture of grads and undergrads. We’ll see how it goes.
39 KoS // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:45 am

@arlembo

Seems interesting. Glad to hear you are exposing the students to more than ESRI. Especially the programming part.

Too bad we don’t have a professor(s) here with your skill set. The students are missing out on alot.

KoS
40 artlembo // Dec 11, 2007 at 7:59 am

@Kos,

where are you at? I’m always up for taking trips to places and shaking things up
41 KoS // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:00 am

Hmmm not sure if I should say….there might be a mob at my doorstep with pitchforks and torches.

Central Indiana….in damn yankee land!!

KoS
42 Teaching vs. Training // Dec 11, 2007 at 10:05 am

It seems to me we are lumping the use of software together with the principles for which we use the software.

The “S” in GIS is not simply Software. It is System. Systems most likely include software, but are not limited to software. They include people, procedures, data, etc.

We “teach” people about GIS, but I would submit we “train” people on particular software packages.

We only use ESRI software at my shop, but I do not believe GIS = ESRI. The principles of spatial analysis, metadata, cartography, projections, etc. fall within the discipline of GIS. ESRI has software that implements these principles in specific ways, much like MapInfo, Manifold, etc. implement these principles in specific ways.

If we are not educating people in the difference between the theory and the implementation, the system and the software, then we are putting then in a box that will not serve them well in the future.
43 ebp // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:20 am

@teaching vs. training

In refernce to the S in GIS.

“They include people, procedures, data, etc.”

You missed, “software” and “hardware”, which is straight out of ESRI Instructor led material. (Introduction to ArcGIS I)

It’s funny to me that when you look at educational materials being used to teach GIS accross our universities, often it’s a smattering of take offs from ESRI instructor led material.
44 Not Huey Long // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:50 am

Anyone want to guess how much of their life they’ve spent staring at the spinning globe in ArcMap?? I figure I’m around a couple of months at this point.
45 ghandhi // Dec 11, 2007 at 11:55 am

@ KoS

I went to college in Central Indiana and the profs who taught GIS at my school couldn’t spell open source if you spotted them open, source and the space in the middle. If it wasn’t ESRI it didn’t exist.
46 KoS // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:10 pm

@ghandhi

Sorry to hear…if you don’t mind me asking. Which school?

I will say, here recently, within the past couple of semesters. A new professor has exposed his students to TransCAD and Maptitude. It’s not open source, but it’s not ESRI either.

If what I’m told is correct, it’s still the same principle. The professor has used the software alot in the past and since it’s his “cup of tea”, thats what the students are going to learn to use in his class.

Kinda caught in the same trap, teach what one knows from their past learning and/or experiences. I’m not knocking it. But with the field evolving the way it is, it isn’t good enough. And imho, the students are being short changed.

KoS
47 Bill // Dec 11, 2007 at 1:29 pm

Honestly, I’m not sure how a school can keep up right now. The technology just seems to be changing so fast. It seems as though an educator may have to stick to a known technology to teahc the concepts in detail (because the consptes are still important). But that does create a situation where students are leaving with a comfort zone based on a specific product line, which may not be great for creating an environment that favorable to alternate tools.

It’s a tough question. Programming has similar issues. Do you switch your teaching language every few years (C to Java to Python to Ruby to ??) or do you stick to a language and teach good programming practices, design patterns and the like and let students deal with different languages in the market?

I’m not sure I have an answer to that. In general, teaching is hard. I guess that’s why I don’t do it.
48 Major Tom // Dec 11, 2007 at 2:13 pm

@ArtLembo
ESRI’s Automap2 in 1983?
Are you thinking of the Australian Survey Corp’s Automap 2 project running Integraph on Interpro’s?
49 KoS // Dec 11, 2007 at 2:50 pm

@bill

Good points. It is hard to keep up, especially anything technology related. Profs should at least try to keep up as best as possible. I know we all get into our “comfort zones”. IMHO, at the college level, people should always push one self outside that “comfort zone”.

Kinda hard to switch programming languages when a programming language, specific to GIS apps, isn’t taught. Currently only thing avaliable is generic programming classes, nothing specific to programming in GIS.

I guess, only do the best we can with what we have at hand. Beggars can’t be too choosy.

KoS
50 Kevin // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:11 pm

@Teaching vs. Training
Valid points. Thats why I did both GIS at University and College.
University taught me the differences between vector and raster, multiple criteria evaluation, the ideas behind different anaylsis.
College taught me how to use the GIS software.

My college was like 108% ESRI with 1% MapInfo. I knew this going in. Looking at the job postings it was “ESRI, ARC*….”, so naturally I wanted to learn the software that fulfilled the majority of the job postings.
51 dgallen // Dec 11, 2007 at 3:47 pm

@Major Tom

Art’s flashback to the 80’s is quite correct. In the days of big hair, Synth bands and Cabbage Patch Kids, ESRI had Automap ii, a “set of programs” for creating base, area, and contour maps, was—together with grid, pios (Polygon Information Overlay System), and ARC/INFO—the early precursor of ESRI’s technology developed later.

And whoever thought mashing a bunch of components like catalogue, a toolbox and a mapping application was by accident? That’s why they call it their “legacy”…
52 jredd // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:11 pm

@ KoS

Watch what you say about ASU, pal. They are teaching some good stuff there (not just ESRI, but mostly ESRI). Even James went there to give a lecture!

Go ‘Devils.
53 Lefty // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:43 pm

James spoke at ASU re: GIS? That must have been pretty damn interesting. I’ve always wondered if his presentations were as interesting as his blog posts.
54 KoS // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:45 pm

Ummm…this isn’t 2 + 2=4. My ASU comment relates to athletics. It’s an open thread!!

I never ever, ever mentioned ASU and GIS in the same breath. I have no clue about their academic programs. My comments about GIS were based on my experiences here in Hoosierville.

Back to athletics and time of season. Too bad UGA Dawgs weren’t heading west. They would eat for lunch any pac-10 team this year. Especially ASU. Too bad we didn’t get the chance to humble USC either.

Go Dawgs!! Beat the warriors….*snicker*….warriors come out to pllaaayyy!!

KoS
55 James Fee // Dec 11, 2007 at 8:52 pm

@KoS: Take a look at 2008 my friend…

http://thesundevils.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/asu-m-footbl-futurescheds.html
56 Larry Geiger // Dec 12, 2007 at 6:46 am

Georgia? They’re only playing one real team next year? No Florida, no LSU, no Tennessee, …
57 artlembo // Dec 12, 2007 at 6:50 am

Major Tom,

it was Automap II. We used a SYMAP ruler to get coordinates to digitize our maps so that could be orthogonally correct on VT100 terminals. Print outs were on the line printer (like those old Mona Lisa printouts!).

It also included the source code which had names like Carol Freedman, Jack Dangermond, and Paul Baumann in it

Kos - feel free to send me an email if you’d like.
58 KoS // Dec 12, 2007 at 8:46 am

James…thanks for the heads up. I was more meaning this year in a bowl game(too bad we weren’t shipped to the Rose). A regular season beat down(the next couple of years) will do too!! Any friendly wagers?

Nice to know UGA added ASU to the schedule instead of some lowly division 1 or 1-aa team. It will help our ratings beating a ASU level of team compared to the later.

I tend to not look at upcoming seasons or schedules, more of a present here and now type of person with sports. Too much can change season to season. Like changes in players and/or coaches. Louisville is a prime example, compare last year to this year…wow, what a change.

Larry….you might want to look at the schedules again. UGA would never ever drop FL or Tenn from the schedule. Couple of reasons, same conference and divison. And more important they are big grudge games.

As for LSU, we play them about ever other year since they are in another division(next year we play them). UGA would have beaten LSU in the SEC championship game if we would have made it this year. Unfortantely we lost to Tenn earlier in the season. And no other team helped in giving Tenn another lost towards the end of the season, *cough*, Vanderbilt or UK.

And don’t forget. Regardless of the non-conference schedule. The SEC is the toughest football conference in the land. No ifs ands ors about it!! The SEC is a brutal football conference to play in.

KoS
59 Slightly Disturbed // Dec 12, 2007 at 9:14 am

My coworker got this G-I-Yes! video link. I was hoping for some animation.
60 Cellulose // Dec 12, 2007 at 10:27 am

@ArtLembo

I’d love to see your paper on database comparisons. We are also doing some research/comparisons in that area… when do you expect the paper to be finished?

Our work has been focused on relative performance and differences in tuning techniques. Thus far, the results have been quite insightful and very disapointing… Not sure if we are going to publish a paper at the end-of-the-day…

(Also, to the person who said government workers don’t have to bill hours–you’re right–some of us have to bill 15 minute increments… we just reserve a little $$ for R&D-ish work. And yes, the auditors scrutinize us down to the15-minute blocks)
61 ghandhi // Dec 12, 2007 at 12:14 pm

@ KoS

BSU!
62 Ralphie // Dec 12, 2007 at 12:52 pm

@artlembo

Arrgh, SYMAP.

Am I that old that I remember it well? I guess so.
63 KoS // Dec 12, 2007 at 1:30 pm

@ghandhi

Ahhh, good ole BSU. I take it, by the time you left school. You had a good idea how to party well? Especially with watermelons! And of course, using Top Ten lists.

Or has that changed since the late 80s early 90s?

@Cell….not sure if your agency is the same. The powers-that-be had a flash of brilliance *cough*. They decided to take IT and make them a seperate “sub-agency”. Now, IT has to keep track of “bill-able” hours.

Audits, don’t get me going on those. Here, too many are done by people in-house, but who are from other areas of the country. Rarely are they done by people from GAO or other entities, at least at the state office level.

I bet you can guess how worthwhile or worthless those audits can be.

KoS
64 ESRI's Bitch // Dec 12, 2007 at 1:34 pm

I have to suckle at the tit of ESRI every day. I wish we could get out of the box, but alas ESRI is embeded at our city. We can’t afford the maintenace, but that doesn’t mean we change our GIS system (I mean ArcIMS 4.01 was nice, but it is freaking almost 2008).

That would make too much sense.
65 Cellulose // Dec 12, 2007 at 1:45 pm

@Kos

No, different entity… about half of our funding is “Work For Others” which is funded in a similar way. We compete for the WFO contracts same as other private contractors… of course, we still have to play by Federal rules that private sector contractors are exempt from.

Of course, you bring up an excellent point. Forgive me if I implied that the audits were worthwhile… I only meant to say that they were detailed…

That’s the only memorable part of that horrible Carl Sagan movie, Contact. My favorite quote: “First rule in government spending: why build one when you can have two at twice the price?”

Why use an existing GIS when you can build one yourself? And then why use the GIS built by another project when you can build it yourself. But at least now we can report to the GAO that we reduced procurements by $1M…

Maybe we should start operating under Euro’s… we might be able to stretch are budget a little further.
66 oakfish // Dec 12, 2007 at 3:44 pm

Keep dreaming KoS. LSU would’ve stomped on the dawgs. Geaux Tigers!
67 KoS // Dec 12, 2007 at 6:04 pm

@oakfish

Disney tells me….my dreams will come true! All I have to do is wish upon a star.

We’ll find out next year. Like I offered James earlier. A friendly wager?

Wasn’t LSU suppose to have stomped Tenn in the championship game? Yet they won by a whisker.

Yes, Tenn stomped UGAs butt early in the season. They had our number that day.

I guarantee this late in the season, the way UGA has been playing. The game with Tenn would have had a different outcome.

But, I may still have egg on my face. Watch, UGA will lay an egg against Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl. Wouldn’t be surprised, been one of those years in college football.

KoS
68 AA // Dec 12, 2007 at 9:01 pm

Has anyone out there implemented or experimented with the drupal.org CMS? Specifically I am looking for examples that integrate GIS (ESRI or otherwise) and spatial data in general.

Thanks for any info.

Cheers-

AA
69 Cellulose // Dec 13, 2007 at 9:17 am

Weird… my postings are only showing up about 1/3 of the time. I think I’m getting hit by the Spam Filter… this happening to anyone else?

That… or James doesn’t like me.
70 oakfish // Dec 13, 2007 at 10:03 am

@KoS

I know this is a classic lame excuse, but our starters were injured all to hell in the SEC champ game. Even our backup quarterback was playing injured much of the game. Lots of healing time will hopefully lead to a stomping of Ohio State in January. I agree with you — been one of those crazy years where anything can happen.
71 KoS // Dec 18, 2007 at 3:12 pm

I thought I would throw this here. Too lazy to email.

James….When I go to this website or click any link within the site with Adobe Acrobat open. I get an error message in a seperate window.

“The Adobe Acrobat/Reader that is running can not be used to view PDF files in a web browser. Please exit Adobe Acrobat/Reader and try again.”

I click ok. Nothing happens and everything seems to be fine.

When I close Adobe and goto this website or even click links within the site. I don’t get the message, nor do I see anything opening or trying anything funny.

I noticed this yesterday. About the same time I stopped getting the pop-up blocker about Quicktime when visiting this site. Also at about the same time I stopped getting google adsense two deep in my back button pull down history. Those suck, since they don’t allow me to go back directly. I have to select manually entries prior to the adsense in the pulldown list.

Just an fyi.

KoS
72 James Fee // Dec 18, 2007 at 3:38 pm

I hate when people get those errors because I never seem to do. I’ll remove adsense for a while and see if that fixes it.
73 Bill // Dec 18, 2007 at 7:16 pm

I usually get the Quicktime message on our home PC after an iTunes update (which seem to happen a lot, BTW). I’ve kind gotten used to it on that machine and figure it’s not really an issue with your site.
74 James Fee // Dec 19, 2007 at 2:31 pm

I think I figured it out. I had some javascript code that was helping my AWStats keep track of some wordpress stuff. For some weird reason it causes that quicktime message. I’ve removed the code.
75 Tim Maddle // Dec 19, 2007 at 7:54 pm

On the Open Source front, I’ve had a lot of success with MapServer using the MapScript API. One thing I love about Mapscript is the .NET API integrates nicely with ASP.NET. For example, you can create a class that does a spatial select and returns the results as a Datatable that integrates with a Gridview very nicely. If you’re familiar with the ObjectDataSource, you can very easily create a paged table of spatial query results.

I haven’t pushed ESRI out the door on the server side (and I personally don’t want to on desktop), but I am getting some push. Unfortunately, just like other places, there’s a lot of dogma and zealotry about ESRI where I work. My biggest problem with ESRI is that for the amount of licensing we can afford, we can’t setup very scalable solutions.
76 KoS // Dec 28, 2007 at 10:47 am

Well James….sorry to see y’all get rolled last night. Not too sorry thou.

Y’all have one hell of a wide out. Need upgrades to the frontlines, then maybe be able to step up and play with the big boys.

Need a few more years of building and ASU can start consistently competing with the bigger programs and leagues.

The key in y’alls case is, keeping the current coach long term.

KoS
77 James Fee // Dec 28, 2007 at 10:52 am

We played very sloppy and Texas came out strong. The result was to be expected after the first two series.

Oh well, not a bad season built on the previous coaches players. Now that Erickson can build using his own recruits, I’m sure this will be mitigated in the future. We looked very much like Arizona State from 2001-2006 last night.
78 KoS // Dec 28, 2007 at 2:39 pm

Very true, ASU had a great year. IMHO, the best I’ve seen since the “Snake” days. Alot to build on in the future.

I could go along with sloppy. More importantly, the frontline line of ASU couldn’t hold up to Texas.

Not sure what the class status is at ASU, like young or old this year. If that frontline is returning next year. Y’all will have tough time playing teams not in the west next year. If they can’t hold up to Texas, no way against UGA next year.

I’ll have to say again, that wide-out, McGaha(spelling?). He has great hands. They seem to suck the ball in like a vac.

Does ASU have Erickson under long term contract? If he can deepen his recruiting into Cal and Texas. And bring in recruits from his ole stomping grounds, like Florida. Y’all have some players to play, day in day out!!

ASU should have no problems bringing in recruits. Location, location!! Warm and great year round weather, nice women, and a suitable urban area. Should make recruiting easy, less reliant on the under-the-table stuff(all schools do, not pointing a finger at ASU)!!

Now, y’all need a basketball team. I guess, one step at a time.

KoS
79 Paul // Dec 28, 2007 at 10:15 pm

Sorry to change the football subject —

…but can anyone explain the ESRI pricing strategy on ArcInfo?

A quick call to the ESRI sales line today told me the standard commercial rate for ArcInfo is $14k …. while at the same time ESRI promotes hardware bundles on their website with higher-end laptops with ArcInfo for $10,500 ~ $11,500.

ArcInfo + a laptop for $10,500 or ArcInfo by itself for $14k. (?!?)

Am I missing something?

Now - back to football: ASU shouldn’t get too comfortable with Dennis Erikson - he’ll be gone before you know it…..
80 Paul // Dec 28, 2007 at 11:19 pm

@ghandi

ESRI started at the desktop - and IMO - ESRI still owns the desktop for mission critical data maintenance and high-end spatial analysis.

If you only need “ballpark” accuracy for non-critical data; ArcGIS is probably too much tool. There are many different criteria that compel one to choose one product over another - but accuracy and reliability have to be in the top three.

If professional quality cartographic output is your objective - there are other options for ‘one time jobs’ - but I don’t know of another product for sustainable data maintenance and professional carto output than ArcInfo; I think Rand McNally and National Geographic would agree.

For mass distribution and visualization of that data (i.e. web) - save yourself $40K and go open source all the way…(and interoperable!!)

NOTE: Geo-Da and CrimeStat are wonderful no-cost complements to ESRI spatial/statistical analysis functions. Interesting that all this talk about open GIS and no one mentioned these tools.