People still don’t get it

People Still Don’t Get It

December 5th, 2007 · 35 Comments · GIS

It amazes me that this attitude still exists. Given all that we’ve learned over the past few years you’d think those “in power” would get the fundamental change that has happened. The geospatial revolution doesn’t need folks with that attitude, it will just pass them by. Planet Geospatial is full of blogs questioning the sanity of those involved.

It is just painful watching this stuff sometimes…

Tags: dumbass·neogeography

35 responses so far ↓

1 Lefty // Dec 5, 2007 at 9:49 am

These “executives” do seem very unsure of what they are talking about.
2 Caitlin // Dec 5, 2007 at 10:01 am

Michael Goodchild is trying to coin a new term called Volunteered Geographic Information (VGI):
http://gislounge.com/community/volunteered-geography/

I’m curious to see if it catches on.
3 FantomPlanet // Dec 5, 2007 at 10:21 am

Is that Damien from ESRI in that video?
4 Anon // Dec 5, 2007 at 10:21 am

My first though when reading it was what a dumb ass and what a dumb ass Directions Magazine is for facilitating these bozos.

Directions kisses ass with all those legacy companies because they “pay the bills”. It is brutal reading some of the posts over there.
5 Steve Larch // Dec 5, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Fear, jealousy and elitism. Those are the only things I gleaned from that article.

I sense much fear in you - Yoda
6 matt m // Dec 5, 2007 at 2:22 pm

I’m in violent agreement with you James. I have never understood the BS of “that’s not a GIS”, except from people that want to denigrate others in a vague fashion using a bit of disingenuous rhetoric. Isn’t it much more useful to simply say that system x does not have feature y? Even taken at face value, the claim that a GIS must feature data creation and spatial analysis seems tough. I think GIS has to be taken in a bit more of a Family Resemblances sense, and there is no need for a formal definition, because it adds nothing to the discussion.
8 Scott // Dec 5, 2007 at 4:02 pm

So, pardon me for ignorance first off, I’m new to this controversy, and if anyone can point me to the root of it, I’d appreciate it, I’d actually love to become more engaged in this(but I’m at work and really should concentrate on it)

I as a geospatially inclined analyst I love tools for the delivery of content. And I can think of only positive benefits from this neogeography term/movement?, to me it creates competition for innovation and upsets the balance of power for large industry leaders.

I’ve said this many times before, if my career was taken away from me tomorrow because I was no longer part of a elite and exclusive group of users, I would pull the switch myself.
9 Dimitri // Dec 5, 2007 at 4:51 pm

“My first though when reading it was what a dumb ass and what a dumb ass Directions Magazine is for facilitating these bozos. “

and

“I’m in violent agreement with you James. I have never understood the BS of “that’s not a GIS”, except from people that want to denigrate others in a vague fashion using a bit of disingenuous rhetoric. Isn’t it much more useful to simply say that system x does not have feature y? “

Well said, the above and other comments.

You have to remember that it is much easier to babble in buzzwords than it is to actually know anything about any of these tools. They don’t have sufficient technical skills to even know whether there is feature x or feature y, let alone know the difference between them or have any sort of sense or taste whether a particular item is of passing tactical interest or whether it has massive strategic portent. They just don’t know.

It never fails to amaze me how most of the “journalists” and “analysts” writing about geotechnology have no personal experience or understanding of the technology at all. Not one whit. It’s as if the automobile trade press was composed of editors and writers who had no clue how to drive a car. I mean that literally.

I remember a conversation with a highly-respected geo-journalist where I suggested that it would be easy to resolve a particular point under discussion by simply lighting up a copy of the software and trying out a few things. I offered to provide some free software for comparison.

The journalist told me, “Dimitri, I don’t actually use this stuff myself. I wouldn’t know how to do any of that.” That’s the rule, not the exception.

That’s also why there are so many “newsfeeds” that have zero value, unless you like getting daily spam from various has-been, geo-paleotards about utter trivialities. The “editors” managing such feeds don’t have the ability to identify what is meaningful and what is not. So they toss whatever spam they get at you.

As for buzzwords, I suppose they do have a useful function in that they are a sure-fire way to know that the person using them does not have much going on upstairs. People who can get real things done go out and do them and don’t much quibble about labels. People who don’t know how to get anything done blather about “neogeographers” vs. GIS vs. whatever.

Let me close with a darned-near perfect example of content-free blather from the directionsmag piece James cited:

“Hickey’s statements cogently define the growth and progression of location technology from merely the eye candy of mashups to the adoption of a broader fundamental IT architecture and strategy for bringing location intelligent solutions to the enterprise. The next phase of adoption will see more integration between BI and LI solutions and a demand from the vertical market segments to customize software that makes sense for their business processes.”

What drivel!
10 Damian // Dec 5, 2007 at 5:36 pm

FantomPlanet - Not that’s not me!!!

I’m not that geeky (although I’d be the last to know, right?)

-Damian
11 George Silva // Dec 5, 2007 at 8:03 pm

Well, this kind of discuss, whether something is a true gis system, or if someone is making geography, or just using gis as a tool, its just plain useless.

People should concentrate on making Earth a better place, instead of spending a LOT of time thinking about “territorial wars”. Some people in my college say that i am just a technician, and they study “the smell of the city”, or the culture of excluded people in a indigenous community. Not much use, unless they can propose a solution. And much more related to anthropology.

This is just intellectual masturbation, imho.

Just think solutions, not additional problems.
12 James Fee // Dec 5, 2007 at 8:05 pm

I’ve never seen Damian move that fast so I know it can’t be him.

Even when I post erroneous information about ArcGIS he can’t move like that.
13 Steve Florek // Dec 6, 2007 at 12:03 am

The old GIS community is still focused on data acquisition (geometry, image handling, etc), heavy duty statistical analysis and spatial algorithm development, and hand-crafted-by-skilled-craftsman printed outputs. They love debating the merits of the different projection systems.

They are getting blown away by a Google Maps-style application that provides all of the updated reference data and imagery for you via the Internet, gives you simple navigation tools (not thirty different mouse pointer modes), and gives you simple mechanisms for simply plotting layers of lat/long coordinates with some associated data.

They are starting to handle polygons better (the lack of clean shapefile interfaces continue to annoy). Presumably thematic mapping will be supported natively sometime in the future. Finally, as was noted in a previous blog entry, someone will offer real-time point interpolation into heat maps.

That’s all people really want. This is to maps what Excel was to data–suddenly the users are empowered to do what they want with maps instead of having to call in a GIS expert for a few hours to fiddle with ArcView to spit out a custom map.
14 erics // Dec 6, 2007 at 6:01 am

knowns:
ellipsoid, geoid, datum, horizontal and vertical relative and absolute accuracy, Douglas and Peuker, photogrammetry, vector, rasterWGS84, …….. are our sciences and expertise

formerly bbox daunted geoconsumers are not invading our realm, they are only vaguely aware of it and won’t understand it, it only increases our responsibilities and opportunities

unkowns:
paradigm shifts disconcert as always, Web 2.0, Web 3.0, SOA, it’s an exciting future now
15 KoS // Dec 6, 2007 at 9:46 am

Dimitri….your comments about journalists are dead on. Not only in the geo field, but in a lof of other fields too. Sadly, too many people don’t keep that in mind when reading.

Now the subject at hand. Whatever gets the job done. Whatever is the most efficient and correct way, use it. It doesn’t matter if it’s traditional geo or neogeo.

KoS
16 Matthew Snape // Dec 6, 2007 at 12:18 pm

I don’t think neogeography is GIS, it is just too user friendly. The reason that any of us working in GIS have a job is because GIS is hard, beyond the scope of the average person.

Eventually neogeography will mean that much of what used to be done by GIS people, will not need specialist skill. This is a good thing, it was boring anyway.

To me GIS is defined as “whatever i’m doing today”, and what I do will evolve. But the true power of GIS is not derived from tools, but as a way of thinking. And although neogeography is not GIS, our expertise can help inform and promote it.
17 AA // Dec 6, 2007 at 1:25 pm

“I don’t think neogeography is GIS, it is just too user friendly. The reason that any of us working in GIS have a job is because GIS is hard, beyond the scope of the average person. “

This make no sense to me. GIS is just another service in our service based economy. And when did GIS vs non-GIS become defined by how easy or difficult it might be?

Maybe I’m missing something but I don’t have someone pick up my trash every week because it is too difficult for me to do, and deer don’t turn into elk at 10,000 feet just because it is something someone arbitrarly set.
18 Jack Dangermond // Dec 6, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Defining “newgeo” as not GIS, is the old guard trying to cover their crotch after they’ve realized they’re standing in front of subjects buck naked. It’s too little, too late.

For over 10 years, the move has been to democratize GIS and put it in the hands of the non-GIS user (engineers, planners, etc.) and now that it’s gone further down to the masses they balk?
19 J Wallis // Dec 6, 2007 at 2:35 pm

yeah the masses, who think there is only one reference of the world…..the Google Earth reference….AKA WGS1984.

Sadly, we have gone from doing GIS right, to doing GIS “just enough to get me what I want”

I shudder to think of the bad decisions that will be made with this “just in time GIS” in the coming future. Sorta like the person who wanted their data projected to a certain UTM zone because “it just looked good”.

Scary times….scary times.
20 Matthew Snape // Dec 6, 2007 at 2:59 pm

AA,

If GIS is a separate identifiable service within our service economy then surely that is because it requires specialist skills. It is something which is hard to do for someone who does not have those skills.

I would argue that there is more to GIS than merely being able to operate software, but an understanding of spatial concepts. If neogeography does not require understanding of these specialist concepts how can it be considered GIS?
21 FantomPlanet // Dec 6, 2007 at 3:12 pm

“Representation.” That’s what it comes down to.

I could write down directions on napkins ’til my hand falls off. Tribal societies could collect GPS points until their batteries run out. James could model ships in Google Earth. Some really smart geodisists could mathematically define a better globe. And software designers could write code for any requirement for a spatial problem. It comes down to input-output and what is needed to be represented and who need to be represented. For both camps, we’re clamoring for affection and connections to groups to say to ourselves “we exist.”
22 Damian // Dec 6, 2007 at 3:33 pm

In some respects we are victims of our own success. Historically the use of geographic analysis were tools of kings of countries and industries, because they understood the value and power the geographic information held. As we (as Geography professionals) have succeeded in showing people how important this information is, more non-professionals see the use and embrace it. Geographic information is very similar to statistics, many people use them and create them, but unless you know what you are doing you may be making false assumptions. As professionals we must help this wider audience embrace leveraging geography, and help them make correct choices or somehow protect them from common errors.

New geography, old geography… the knowledge is the same, the difference (if there is one) is who is asking and what they expect. The rules about placement, colors, projection,… still apply. But it’s important to embrace “non-traditional” use as that expands the scope of everyone’s knowledge and expectation.
23 Michal // Dec 6, 2007 at 3:46 pm

this forum is interesting reading. And what seems to be more interesting is that here is more comments than on the page of incriminating article. And btw, neogeography sounds stupid just by the name.
24 Stanley // Dec 6, 2007 at 3:49 pm

When I had dinner with James on his trip out to Honolulu, he showed me some of the non-traditional uses of ArcGIS that he’s been involved with. The simple fact that you can take a traditional proprietary GIS system such as ESRI’s and make it do things that I had never even dreamed of, shows that there is much ahead of us.

To dismiss neogeography as a play toy or as not “real” will only lead to your irrelevancy. That is what I’ve learned in the past few weeks. The more you open your eyes to what folks are doing out there with “GIS”, the more you see.
25 Lefty // Dec 6, 2007 at 3:51 pm

@Michal:

Just so you know, smart people hang out on James’ blog. Directions Magazine is full of irrelevant posters.
26 George Silva // Dec 6, 2007 at 4:03 pm

GIS is hard. It is supossed to be hard. How can you earn money if any 14 year old can do GIS work?

A few years ago Photoshop got popular, and all of a sudden 1000000 kids had better jobs then someone who was in the profession for years.

Perhaps the creation of technical standarts would separate these two types of work. In Brazil theres no specific laws about GIS. Dont know about the states…

Standarts, tight group of professionals, that would separate “noob work” from professional work.
27 Dave Bouwman // Dec 6, 2007 at 8:20 pm

When I first read the article/snippet I was going to write a post about it, but I’m traveling so I’ll let it go with just a short comment…

Old Skool: Stop finger pointing and focus on releasing great software. (Some of you are - keep it up)

New Skool: You will still need the old skool for some things - don’t be too quick to burn bridges.

Everyone: Semantic finger pointing like this is a waste of time. Put your energy into doing something remarkable.
28 Lefty // Dec 6, 2007 at 8:54 pm

Dave, its a freaking blog. The whole reason any of us are reading this stuff is because we are wasting our time. If we were busy, we wouldn’t be here.
29 Dave Bouwman // Dec 7, 2007 at 5:30 am

@Lefty

Touche.
30 J Wallis // Dec 7, 2007 at 7:34 am

“GIS is hard. It is supossed to be hard. How can you earn money if any 14 year old can do GIS work?

A few years ago Photoshop got popular, and all of a sudden 1000000 kids had better jobs then someone who was in the profession for years.
“

EXACTLY! It reminds me of the MCSEs who came out of cert mills who were suddenly “system administrators”

and this neogeography term needs to die, here and now. It implies that the discipline of geography is broken or unresponsive when in fact it shows the unwillingness to learn the discipline of geography.
31 Tim Maddle // Dec 7, 2007 at 5:52 pm

Why couldn’t they make a sitcom about Star Wars Kid instead of Cavemen?

“A few years ago Photoshop got popular, and all of a sudden 1000000 kids had better jobs then someone who was in the profession for years.”

Maybe that should be appended with, ” and refused to keep up with technology and trends in the field.” You may not like a trend in the industry, but don’t think that means it’s going away or you can hide from it.
32 KoS // Dec 8, 2007 at 7:39 am

After reading J Wallis comments..

“and this neogeography term needs to die, here and now. It implies that the discipline of geography is broken or unresponsive when in fact it shows the unwillingness to learn the discipline of geography”

I’m starting to agree with that assessment. IMHO, it would seem the term neogeography is being used as more a marketing device. A way to seperate one self from the crowd. In reality, it’s not a seperate discipline, rather a sub-discipline within the big, broad heading of geography.

All they are doing(in most cases) is appling new tools to old geographic basics.

Geography does and can cover almost everything on this Earth. Hence it’s root meaning. No need to re-invent the wheel, so to speak.

Neogeography isn’t changing the entire discipline of geography. Rather the geospatial component of geography is being changed through the activities of the “neos”. Why call/name it neogeography? Maybe it should be called/named neo-GIS, neo-matics, neo-something? Not neogeography, geography isn’t changing, the technology to apply geography is changing.

KoS
33 daethKiss // Dec 9, 2007 at 5:11 am

I like this man on the video. He is like a samurai
34 J Wallis // Dec 12, 2007 at 7:23 am

@Tim

Just because a new trend comes along doesn’t mean it is a good trend. Remember when Java was pitched as the holy grail that was going to end all of our cross platform issues? Wow that really came to pass huh?
35 darth // Dec 17, 2007 at 2:03 am

I think it’s important to keep the discussion straight. Without doubt it’s all about gis. But what’s the difference? It’s an economic reason. Community based activities are based on economic models that are based on saving money mostly on a production process (mainly software-production. or think of published beta-software keeping the eye on the testing process). “Volunteered Geographic Information” saves costs for example in the production process (user-data) or the marketing process (bringing established software into the “professional” market). Companies or software-maintainers are using this economic strategies behind their actions, mostly aware (traditionalist, the new big ones or the os-maintainers) some unaware (the lone sourceforce nerd).
Second question: Why “Volunteered Geographic Information” or “Community based GIS”? Main reason is: People like to save money. OS and Google are cheaper than the traditionalists. Second reason is: People like to rig something together, like the next modern web-client. Third reason: People like underdogs and like to deconstruct established structures.

There are economic reasons, technical reasons and social reasons. We had it all before…