Microsoft SQL Server 2008 Spatial Will Be Supported on Free Express Versions
I just got this tidbit of information from a friend who talked to Ed Katibah (lead Program Manager for SQL Spatial).
Spatial datatype, methods and indexes will be supported equally on all SQL Server editions (Express, Workgroup, Standard and Enterprise) at no extra charge. That means anyone who wants to use the SQL Server 2008 Spatial can download the free Express version and start working with spatial databases. Express will still have its limitations as it does now but you have to believe that this puts a huge damper on middleware producers that are targeting .NET developers (ArcSDE *cough*).
Just think, download SQL Server 2008 Express and perform geospatial operations in Virtual Earth or OpenLayers.
SQL Server Mechagodzilla pushes other Spatial Databases aside with ease
Can someone remind me again why I care about ArcSDE in 2008?
You can actually start experimenting with the Express version of the current CTP. So far, it’s pretty nice.
The database replication tools for SQL Server 08 are truly amazing. The slickest part, IMHO, is the RSS replication feed. Combined with spatial data types and you’ve got one freakin nice tool for all manner of data driven applications.
I’ll second that!
Just think, you can download PostGIS/Postgres right now and perform geospatial operations in Virtual Earth or openlayers.
RMcCulley: You can actually do this right now with SQL Server as well.
https://connect.microsoft.com/SQLServer/content/content.aspx?ContentID=5395
I’m a huge fan of PostGIS but I support a lot of SQL Server installs, too so I’m quite happy about this. But I also recently migrated a customer to PG from SQL. It’s good to have choices.
Check out the latest FME beta at http://www.safe.com/support/beta/index.php for a free evaluation for reading and writing to SQL Server Spatial.
SQLServer lacks a good front end client for GIS. So, I just tried it in Manifold. It works great!
So, for $395, I have a full GIS client to SQLServer 2008. Now, I’m not sure how well it will handle many, many GBs of data (Manifold still chokes on really large data sets). But, for medium and small enterprise applications: Look out!!
That´s a great new, not only to small applications
Wow, MS just fired a shot across the bow of Oracle Locator.
MSSQL Spatial ….vs….Oracle Locator *FIGHT!*
And if anything needed a warning shot, it was Oracle Locator!
You can do this now using the MSSQLSPATIAL project on Codeplex:
http://www.codeplex.com/MsSqlSpatial
…but it will be nice to be able to do this natively without the need for 3rd party tools.
Does anyone know how or if the new SQL Server 2008 DB will work with with raster data?
MsSqlSpatial is an excellent project that enables spatial data in SQL 2005. There are many environments that may be slow on the uptake of 2008 (like certain government sectors that are just now moving to 2005) that may want to look at it.
I have not heard about raster support in 2008 so I wouldn’t want to comment.
Does anyone know if SQL Server 2008 Spatial will support anything beyond lines, points, and polygons? What options would a client have for annotation, raster, etc?
I think you could do raster catalog support through the new filestream data type. They have several examples of this new type being used to rapidly stream picture or large file data to the db client without allowing the client direct access to the file itself (as you need to do when storing a url or pointer to a file) and without the need to actually store the BLOB itself in the DB
SQL Server isn’t going to support raster in this release. There is a good SQL Server Spatial webcast here abour 1hr long:
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2agke7
Forgive – I’m not a developer or DBA but perhaps someone could explain this to me. Some tech-head here often harps on about how great Oracle is as it supports ’spatial’ data – I’ve never really fathomed what he means by this, as to me, spatial data (polygon geometry, location and topology rules) are just another set (or linked sub-sets) of information – and that’s all a RDBMS is anyway. For example take ArcSDE – we have polygons in there representing boundaries, these consist of a table outlining their geographic location, a linked subset of info about their geometry (their polygons and not lines) and a linked attribute information table featuring ‘text’. Right?
So when he talks about “oracle supports spatial data” what does he mean beyond that? And why is this announcement so significant?
@gg7aph, the significance of a database natively supporting spatial data is that middleware such as ArcSDE is no longer needed for users to add, update, and delete spatial data or for users to perform common geoprocessing tasks. Of course, that has huge ramifications for ESRI, because a large part of their business has been selling products that give spatial capabilities to databases that don’t already have them.
The traditional ESRI model has been that users invest “X” dollars in the RDBMS. They then spend “Y” on ArcSDE to give that RDBMS spatial capabilities, then “Z” dollars on the tool needed to work with ArcSDE, ArcMap (I believe at least the ArcEditor license is required if the user wants to modify data in the SDE, but it might be the ArcInfo license).
When a database natively supports spatial data, you have the potential to eliminate the ArcSDE and ArcMap middlemen. Adding, updating, deleting spatial data, as well as many geoprocessing operations such as buffering, can be done via SQL commands.
Of course, that’s a simplification. ArcSDE offers capabilities such as versioning that go beyond basic editing of data. Even if you can do spatial SQL directly against your RDBMS, you might want to get some version of ArcMap do visualize the results, and ArcSDE 9.2 is supposed to allow you to do spatial SQL queries.
The significance of MS entering the picture is that they are Microsoft, and where they go, a huge quantity of intellectual and monetary resources follow (and not just directly from MS). SQL Server 2008’s spatial support has the potential to really “validate” the idea of using the RBDMS’s native spatial capabilities without the need for a piece of expensive middleware (ArcSDE) on a scale that previous products have not. I’m not saying that Sql Server 2008 is going to do something that Oracle Spatial or PostGIS can’t, but it will gain the attention of a lot more people.
ArcSDE is not going away overnight, but it’s value is being lessened, and I think ESRI is aware of this fact. That’s why ArcSDE is no longer a separate product, but a part of the ArcGIS Server product. I would suggest that right now, ESRI holds one of the trump cards in terms of the longevity of ArcSDE – namely, ArcMap. It is the premeir tool for visualizing data and working with different formats. Until the tools for working with these other products improve, many shops are going to rely on ArcSDE because of the ArcMap-ArcSDE connection.
There are great reasons to use ArcSDE going forward. If you’ve standardized on ArcGIS, ArcSDE works just so well. With support for PostgreSQL, that eliminates part of ArcSDE’s hidden costs allowing ESRI users to continue using ArcSDE.
I don’t see our company dropping ArcSDE for our production GIS anytime soon. In fact with us rolling out geodatabase replication, ArcSDE is critical to our workflows.
Now that doesn’t mean that we won’t be using SQL Server 2008 or PostGIS for individual projects, but I just can’t see us dropping ArcSDE for our ESRI products.
No doubt, the ArcMap/ArcSDE connection holds a lot of power. ArcSDE isn’t going away overnight, but I think it’s going to become increasing visible that enterprise level GIS apps, particularly delivered through web clients, can be done without ESRI products. Heck, I bet there will people who take SQL Server’s spatial capabilities and run with them. They’ll develop their spatial apps, and when asked how their product compares to ESRI will say, “Who’s ESRI?”
I don’t want to come off as a MS cheerleader, but, if nothing else, I hope their entry into the market at least brings down the costs of ESRI’s products. Right now, my organization is really struggling with where we want to go spatially versus what we can afford to purchase.
ArcMap. It is the premeir tool for visualizing data and working with different formats. Until the tools for working with these other products improve, many shops are going to rely on ArcSDE because of the ArcMap-ArcSDE connection.
this is where Manifold can really shine. They have a plethora of spatial tools, does a good job of data display, and they have also hitched their wagon to Microsoft. It is the ideal “client” to SQLServer 2008. And, for $395, its a steal.
Cadcorp SIS is the premier tool for working with different formats (>160), not ArcMap…
Oracle must be worried, at least
Thanks Guys – that is what i thought the answer might be – i’m not as dumb as I thought! With this in mind, what type of skills should i be turning my attention to to aid career advancement in this field. I’m proficient at GIS analysis and understanding spatial statisics. I also manage and administer a number of ArcServer clients – but only using the included web application. If i want to learn something more – what should that be?
gg7aph: Something very handson you can do. Try and get to grips with advanced SQL queries, getting your head around how to model geoprocessing workflows using SQL queries. I believe more and more stuff will be done on the server, using the spatial capabilities of the different RDBMS, be it Oracle, MSSQL, IBM, PostgreSQL or MySQL. So any database building, customisation, administration and optimisation skills will become ever more valuable.
I do have to say, that Manifold again is the leading example in using Spatial SQL to do a lot of geoprocessing.
Thanks Petz – without getting ahead of myself, how do you then ‘convert’ these advanced SQL queries to XML to pass over the web?
AFAIK, it will increasingly be possible for databases to directly output results in XML format. Otherwhise, you will need a helper script that converts the output to XML.
WRT to SQL2008, there are already functions to return geometry as GML, which you can then style as needed. PostGIS does this also. SQL Server has already supports XML output for standard data types so I think it should be pretty straightforward but I haven’t tried it yet with 2008.
I also agree with James regarding ArcSDE in that it’s not going anywhere anytime soon and that it provides advantages but I would like to see the middleware go away in the future.
Petz,
I don’t know what the best solution is, but retrieving XML is a really slow slog of a way to get the data. I’ve written .dlls to do it (that is, consume webservices). Like I said, I don’t have a better alternative, but for a healthy amount of data, its really slow.
What I can’t wait to see is all the new companies that are going to spring up and build tools and frameworks against SQL2008 spatial functions. Like a previous post mentioned just the fact that Microsoft is introducing this and supporting this is huge. I can’t wait to see new companies try there hand at GIS and putting there own mark and twist on it, like Google did.
So I wonder when the ArcSDE is dead post is going to go up?
sorry hoppy, but Manifold doesn’t hold a candle to the depth of ArcGIS Desktop. It is about 5 years behind on the UI.
@Wallis: (Here we go again) Have you actually used Manifold in any extensive way to make this qualified statement here? In what way is the Manifold UI behind?
My personal feeling is that there has been way much more thought put into the User Interaction model of Manifold, vs the “historically grown” ArcGIS interface (pilling on menu on menu over toolbar to toolbar).
Yes, I have used it….or rather “tried” to use it.
The UI looks like project explorer from VS.net. No thanks.
Hmmm. That’s actually kind of intriguing as I like VS.Net. Thanks for the pointer!
I’ve been using ArGIS on a project for the last couple of weeks and I find it incredible the number of dialogues I have to wade through to change the simplest settings.
If that’s your idea of a great UI you can keep it.
Okay, so your basically saying that VisualStudio.Net is 5 years behind in terms of User Interface design . Riighhttt !
The MS guy I talked to a while back said that SQL Server 2008 Spatial will allow each record to store multiple spatial geometries. I’m pretty sure he said this feature would be available in 2008.
I guess this would allow you store different scales of a feature in one record and programmatically call a specific geometry depending on map scale? or store different feature types with one record (i.e. both a city point and city limit poly)?
I’ve been playing around with IBM DB2 Express and it has very nice spatial and xml support, plus it’s free. There is no limitation on number of tables or table size, just a limitation on the hardware of the hosting computer (2 processors and 4 GB of memory, as far as I recall.) Ian Turton mentioned to me that DB2 has great GeoTools support as well, much better than Oracle. Just another option for folks to consider.
@Frank, I’m glad I took another look at this thread – I’ll give the DB2 Express a try.
I decided to finally download the SS 2008 CTP and start playing with the spatial features. Once Express 2008 was up and running and I did a little digging, it was surprisingly easy to load a shapefile of 250000+ points. I used .NET and MapServer to write a text file of the shapes in WKT format and a couple of attribute fields, then used the SQL Server Bulk Import to import from the text file. Once I knew what to do, the whole process of writing the file and importing took about 5 minutes.
I found the spatial performance of SQL Server 2008 to be somewhat disappointing, but I’m sure that will get better for the release version. There might also be some indexing options I’m not yet aware of, but the ability to do spatial sql directly against the database is an incredible tool for web applications.
I created a spatial index on my shape column and performance increased significantly. A spatial select that returned over 5000 records processed in about a second. I can still get better performance with MapServer and indexed shapefiles, but for those who hate the idea of keeping or exporting data to shapefiles, this seems to be a great alternative.
So, then, if I have a spatial DB set up in Microsoft SQL Server 2008 do I need ArcSDE to synchronize/update the database through ArcMap? That is the key I guess – I have field units out there collecting data with ArcPad, a license for ArcView ArcGIS 9.2, and Microsoft SQL Server 2008. It would suck but I still think I may need to purchase a license for ArcSDE in order for us to update and connect a local File Geodatabase to the Microsoft SQL Server database.
Actualy, i use PostGIS/Postgres but i also want to try SQL server 2008, Maybe i start with Free Express version first.
Thanks for this article.
SQL Server 2008 uses ellipsoid model of the Earth; Virtual Earth/Google Earth use Web Mercator projection. The Earth, actually, is geoid. At this time, only ESRI ArcGIS products provide accurate spatial references used in cartography, so it’s become the de facto geospatial standard. What I would like to see SQL Server 2008 do is include a method that would allow us to represent vector data in different user-defined scales or resolutions (1:24,000, 1:1,000,000).
With MSSQL 2008 supporting Spatial Capabilities, you can now also use Autodesk Map and Mapguide for a full web integrated GIS System. AutoCAD Map will connect directly to a MSSQL 2008 Database and you can add, delete, and change the data or the spatial side. With Mapguide you can distribute the mapping via web to anyone with a web browser. I have several companies who have used Autodesk products to develop a highly integrated web GIS system, in a much shorted period of time and the sites look as good if not better than the ESRI sites.
Just a couple of dumb questions from this newbie:
@Nighthawk:
“At this time, only ESRI ArcGIS products provide accurate spatial references used in cartography, so it’s become the de facto geospatial standard.”
Is that really true? Do none of the other commercial GIS tools do this properly?
@Matt Winger:
Can’t you use other spatial databases (Postgres, Oracle, DB2 etc) with “Autodesk Map and Mapguide for a full web integrated GIS System”, or is there some reason why you can only use SQLServer with MapGuide in this way?