We’ve implemented more ArcIMS sites than I can recall over the past few years. The chief developer on my team has probably as much AXL experience as anyone I know. But times change and clients have different expectations than they did in 1999 or even 2006.
“Because you didn’t come here to make the choice, you’ve already made it. You’re here to try to understand why you made it.”
On one our latest projects, we are developing a site using SharePoint and what would have been ArcIMS. The difficulty we’ve had getting the WebADF to work the way we want has put a damper on our excitement that we had when it first showed up. It is just way too difficult for the “simple” and “quick” development that we have to do. Plus, as nice as the WebADF is, clients still are expecting a Google Maps type interface and the WebADF is not that (nor does it try to be). With the new licensing of Virtual Earth, we’ve decided that MapDotNet Server 2007 connecting to ArcSDE is the way to go. The front end will be based on Virtual Earth so folks will feel comfortable with the interface (it seems every ArcIMS web mapping site is different and that causes usability issues) and they’ll be able to work with the data rather than fighting the interface.
Now this isn’t to say that we are abandoning ESRI server products because that isn’t the case. We will continue to develop ArcIMS sites for clients who want them (I still say it makes sense to leverage existing licenses of ArcIMS or move over to ArcGIS Server Standard) than dump all that work and start new and ArcGIS Server applications for clients whose requirements need Geoprocessing. But for quick and simple web mapping I think MapDotNet and Virtual Earth will be the killer combination for ESRI .NET developers who are already familiar with the tools. The simple fact that folks won’t have to abandon any of their existing ESRI servers (ArcSDE is still there) and desktop clients, the ease of which we can develop applications and the speed of MapDotNet will give our clients that quick, easy to use, great looking web mapping tool that they have been clamoring for.
Maybe the ESRI REST API will change things for us (I wasn’t at the 2007 UC so I have no idea how it looks or works), but for now we are going in this direction. We’ll see what the 2008 Developer Summit brings for the REST API and rapid development of ESRI web mapping applications.
I find it interesting to see another ESRI developer look outside the ESRI stable for a replacement to MapObjects. There was some concern among many developers at the 2007 Dev Summit that ESRI was abandoning the smaller developers and focusing on enterprise level GIS tools. Steve, who posted on his blog about .NET SIG at the Developer Summit wrote:
Damian [Spangrud] talking … discussion about pricing … tension between large enterprise customers who expect it to cost more and smaller shops that think it is too much (like me).
That just scares me working with ESRI server software. I feel like I’m being priced out of the marketplace with their new tools. The days of writing simple and cheap Avenue or MapObjects application are over. Now you need superstars who know ArcObjects in and out and clients where price is no option. Maybe the RESI API will change this (or maybe not), but if you look around there are tons of tools available for you to use that won’t mess with your workflows and might just allow you to improve you output without spending tens of thousands of dollars.
So we’ll see where this all leads. We still may decide that MapDotNet isn’t for us and go back to trying to figure out the WebADF and its task framework.
30 Comments
When you are ready to look at deCarta for fast, easy internet mapping without advertisements give me call
My company has actually stopped paying maintenance on our ESRI software because of cost and a lack of focus. I’m interested in seeing what happens with SharpMap and MapDotNet, we are paying attention to what you are writing.
ESRI seems to be becoming a consulting organization as opposed to a software developer. That change means they are looking after their bottom line, not the end users.
I downloaded the MapDotNet demo when you posted about it a couple months ago. I liked what I saw, but we don’t really do web development anymore.
I think you’ve got it right though, people need to take their business elsewhere if they aren’t happy with the product.
I couldn’t agree more, 95% of the business data-viz and spatial analysis use cases we encounter with our customers can be addressed with solutions at 1/5 the cost-of-ownership of the previous (GIS 1.0) old-gaurd platforms.
The key right now for the MapDotNet Server product team is to stay out front in GIS 2.0 while at the same time strengthening our performance and quality base. Technology is moving so fast – it is good to be nimble but a solid product is key. Look for multiple large-scale site deployments using MDNS and VE over the next few weeks – and check out version 6.1.1 (released today.)
“We will continue to develop… ArcGIS Server applications for clients whose requirements need Geoprocessing.”
James:
Just curious as to what types of Geoprocessing needs your clients currently require in a web app. Put another way, how much functionality beyond the spatial processing functions currently offered by PostGIS, Oracle Spatial, and soon SQL Server 2008 do you foresee needing?
Seems to me that the 80-20 rule would favor a simplified server architecture…
Brian
Brian: The answer to that question is that it depends on our clients. I know one of our clients is anxious to migrate much of their NEPA analysis to the web from old ArcView 3.x/MapObjects applications as well as ArcEditor licenses. Most of the need for the ESRI solution is its integration into existing ArcGIS Desktop workflows (eg publishing data models).
I agree spatial databases will probably start to eat into that model, but for now I think people have a hard time thinking outside of what they know and are comfortable with. They can understand making a model in ArcCatalog and serving it up to ArcGIS Server.
Regarding Web ADF challenges… we’ve spent about 9,000 hours (to date) engineering a software extension for Web ADF that makes it way easier to develop apps for ArcGIS Server. In a few weeks, we’re going Beta with a GUI for constructing Web ADF apps based on our underlying configuration framework and tools. If anyone’s interested in participating in the Geocortex Essentials 1.2 Beta, let me know.
James: On the publishing side – that has been an uphill struggle from our perspective as well. Where the ESRI lifecycle is entrenched, the workflows are like deep ruts. Scheduled for 6.5 is our new DMC (Data Management Console) – a WPF application for ETL with Katmai spatial (SQL2008) at the core. It will be interesting to see how this impacts things once you get past modeling.
I loved playing with MapDotNet.. and the whole idea of using your ESRI based data over the top of the VE/GE data appeals to me. That is my largest issue is departments who want to use VE/GE for there needs, but they don’t have our internal data!
James (and others),
How do you think Arc2Earth compares to MapDotNet? A2E gives you another option of a simplified mapping server. I believe the ability to easily get a nicely looking map in both VirtualEarth, GoogleMaps and OpenLayers is a big plus. Customization would be HTML/CSS/Javascript.
On a related note, I find Google’s mapplets functionality to enhance the standard map interesting, but you cannot embed them easily on your site.
@Stephan
I think A2E is targeting slightly different markets then MapDotNet and AGS. There is clearly overlap for users who only need read-only maps in VE, GM or GE with simple identify operations, however you will always need some sort of server software if you need to query large amounts of data on-the-fly. So we have 2 groups of users, the desktop folks who will never buy/setup a server and then enterprise folks who are using A2E as part of a larger process.
You could use A2E in conjunction with MDN or AGS though. Use A2E to create map tiles in ArcMap and then referencing them from your existing server. For example, the NOAA NowCoast weather tiles could easily be referenced from MapDotNet or AGS viewers.
Or, you could wire up geospatial services directly into VE/GM, I think this is where we will see the biggest growth in the future. REST architectures will be a big driver of this. Here’s a quick sample that combines data from 3 different sources, the Google servers for base maps, a tile cache created by A2E client and an Identify service running on our servers (which happens to be AGS but it could just have easily been some other server software). Click on the land area to identify Census Block areas:
Census Block Identify Test
cheers brian
Steve:
When you are ready to look at deCarta for fast, easy internet mapping without advertisements give me call
only problem is DeCarta makes you pay a fortune on a per transaction basis – way more then even the government institution I work for was willing to shell out — it is a nice product though…
James – welcome to the 21st century and modern mapping. We switched to a VE & SDE/Oracle Spatial solution over 12 months ago and havent looked back. ESRI is a dinosaur that thinks its ok to sell 1995 mapping technology and nobody – not even government agencies – want that anymore.
Case is point: I received a call from a client today telling me a custom ArcIMS 9.x .NET application was broken because when he selected the zoom out icon (hourglass with a minus in the center of it) the map did not respond. I explained that he had to select the tool then click the map. He says “Oh… well thats not what Im used to from Google maps…” I said, “Dont worry – the next release of your application will BE Google Maps!!!” …. needless to say he was pretty excited…
Oh and saving a government agency the tens of thousands in maintenance fees does hurt either… anyone want to buy a couple of ArcGIS Server licenses…. going once… going twice….. ??
One comment, you are not saving the govt any money. If they don’t spend the money on maintence or the like. They will spend the money on something else, whether it is a good buy or not. The savings isn’t returned to those who fund the operations of govt.
Agencies have to spend what they are authorized, otherwise next year they potentially won’t receive the same amount.
The agency may save through the year. At the end of the year, the savings is spent on whatever.
Govt. spending never goes down, overall that is. The only way govt saves money is to not spend and collect the money in the first place.
A sad, vicious, dirt little cycle.
KoS
KoS -
Our Funding Model – that of a Department of Information Technology – has no budget and therefore we do not use antiquated techniques such as zero-based budget where you have to spend it all in order to get that plus more in the next fiscal year. We operate as a contractor agency if you will – where other state departments contract us to handle GIS work for them at an agreed upon rate much like the private sector rfp & bid process if you will… not exactly like it – but similar.
So to answer your question: if we do not have to charge a sister agency for maintenance fees (common to ESRI) because we no longer incur that cost the we are, in a sense, saving the government i.e. the client agency or department money which is a part of government. Now, that being said – if they take that savings and spend on something else, some other public service, then the savings is returned to those who fund government… in the form of another or extended public service…
ArcIMS is difficult to implement and the interface is dated not to mention the price is very high for what you get, too much cover not enough book. We will not be renewing our maintenance.
My comments related to the Feds, since I see it and deal with it on a daily basis. Not sure what the states are doing, to each it’s own.
Kevin….you are correct, except I may take exception to the idea of govt spending money on other services is a savings or refund to the taxpayers.
Myself, I don’t consider that a refund or a savings. I see it as more spending. Refund, means, I have the money in my hand and I spend the money, not the govt. If govt can do with less from savings, then they can collect less money to being with.
Govt isn’t the be all, end all. I know alot of people, sadly, think that. Some of the services are not necessary, they seem to be a jobs program.
Also, I never understood the idea of agencies charging each other. Nor do I agree with that approach. The money all comes from the same pot and govt is not a profit making machine.
KoS
Kos: “Also, I never understood the idea of agencies charging each other. Nor do I agree with that approach. The money all comes from the same pot and govt is not a profit making machine.”
Some in government would disagree with you… I however, do not!
Nor do I think government work is be all, end all… I think its boring from an IT and GIS perspective… Im not a forester so Fed/State Gov work in GIS is not “where its at” simply a web developer who happens to have a ms in Geography… go figure!
All that aside – my overall point, as Im sure you can agree with, is that ESRI is antiquated and made a critical slip when they decided to not partner with one of the big 3 (MS, Google, Yahoo) when the first web mapping apps were pubslished years ago and Jack can claim the “New GIS” is not true GIS but no ones listening.
Web 2.0 is upon us and it is a glorious day…
cheers, Kevin
hahah trust me, alot of people in govt don’t agree with me on a variety of things.
Hell, alot of people out of govt don’t agree with me too.
What makes me chuckle thou. I talk to someone and they don’t agree with me. Later on, I hear them support/mention to myself or others the same ideas/thoughts they earlier disagreed with. Most of the time, it seems it’s the messenger, not the message.
As for the last point. I agree and disagree at the same time. I think people are right to think ESRI should have partner up. On the flip side. With technology changing at the pace it is so far. Web 2.0 could be the old hag in the near future and everyone is on to the next new honey.
Personally, I don’t care one way or another about the success or failure of one company or another. I’ll go to where ever or who ever has the best tool or method to complete whatever project/issue I have at hand.
Also, I wasn’t accusing you of thinking govt is the be all end all. It was a general comment about people who do. We need to keep that beast, govt, out of our life as much as possible and only allow it in when necessary(not a want but a need).
Glad to see fellow geographer beating the keys.
Let’s not forget about those large, bloated, extension of the federal government we call corporations (not all of them, just the ones that are government funded, government controlled, or sanctioned monopolies).
They’re pretty good at wasting money and intruding on our lives too… Which raises the question, is ESRI really just an extension of the government like the big players in aerospace, telco, mail, etc?
Though I have to agree… this idea of government agenices “paying” each other never made any sense. It overly complicates the budgets and makes it harder to account for the true cost of anything. It also creates madening delays for simple tasks while we wait for the government to pay itself for services its already paid to do.
I think the age-old idea of government running more like a business has been taken a little too literally…
What like the Federal Reserve? Fannie Mae? To name a few examples and more importantly, relevant to real life atm.
What a ride on the stock market.
KoS
James – I’ve also heard good things about MapDotNet, but personally I’m more interested in the PostGIS SDE scenarios. ESRI users get a free DBMS that has a native spatial data type. They can use the ESRI desktop goodness to manage/analyse data, while at the same time using MapServer/GeoServer + tile caching + OpenLayers (which supports G/Y/VE maps) + other Prototype love to create web apps. And with the REST and Javascript APIs coming for ArcGIS Server, you can still mix in geoprocessing, routing, cartographic rendering etc as needed. I think this will be a true best of breed stack that can handle pretty much any problem a client will want to throw at it.
Cheers,
Dave (posted from Vancouver BC)
@Brian (comment 11): Thanks for the cool demo, I also think that integrating A2E output with your own data service is a nice option.
But I have to agree with Dave (comment 21): When there is PostGIS support for ArcSDE, you can manage your data with ArcGIS desktop on a free DBMS. And on the same dataset, it is very easy to implement an “identify service” by wrapping a simple SQL query in a web request. No need for any licensed product AND you have lots of external hosting services which support PostgreSQL.
Is there anyone providing AGS hosting – will there ever be external AGS hosting?
“ESRI seems to be becoming a consulting organization as opposed to a software developer. That change means they are looking after their bottom line, not the end users.”
ESRI began as, and always has been, a software services company. Further, looking after the bottom line and looking out for users is not, and cannot be, mutually exclusive for a successful company in the long run.
FroodCNB: While it might be true that ESRI is a software consulting company, I think many of us out here on the front lines have noticed a shift in their software development during the last 5 years. It isn’t about helping the little guy, but keeping FedEx happy. That has to charge or users will be leaving for different products.
@Stephan: Re AGS Hosting – I looked at this a few years back – or more specifically at ArcIMS hosting. The problem was the ASP pricing model from ESRI: 2 x retail. And as far as I know this still remains today.
Since we all know that AGS is a huge resource hog, and you have to license each and every machine that has any portion of their software stack on it, it would be cost prohibitive to get into AGS as an ASP. There would be very few ways to streamline the backend so the pricing model would be really complex. While tile caches help, I don’t think you can connect to the tile cache unless you go through the ADF backend, so there is still a pricy license in the mix there. Maybe we’ll see some movement on direct HTTP GET access to the tile cache with the Javascript client, or maybe someone else will write a TileCache Rest service that can read an ESRI tile cache directly (getting rid of the pesky and costly ADF. What we may see are ASP’s which will host a replica of your data (synchronized via SDE replication) in PostGIS, and then have GeoServer + Cache + OpenLayers in front of that. This could be a viable business model because the expensive licensing point is on ArcSDE, and that actually scales quite well. You could then have a specific “menu” of AGS services that you could apply to one of these sites – which would allow you (as the vendor) to constrain the load, thus making the AGS licensing manageable.
Cheers,
Dave
Dang. I didnt think I agreed with much that you say James, until I read this post. Spot on the money.
Hi all – another perspective from those of us in the Third World where “broadband” means 128 kbps (and that is only at 3 AM when everyone has gone to bed) and costs more than US$ 500/month…
You can’t actually get an ArcIMS application up and running here, it just requires more resources than are available. We ended up developing our own system using MapServer as an engine and it works even on dialup. I understand why all the big companies are going for enterprise solutions, makes sense, that’s where the big money is. But we reckon there’s a lot of people it isn’t appropriate for so are looking for them as a market. Different strokes for different folks.
Check out our Cambodia Atlas site built using our software (Mango Map, http://www.mangomap.com), http://www.cambodiaatlas.com/mapIndex.html – would appreciate feedback.
Cheers from Cambodia and Lao PDR
I must admit that I too share the apprehension and trepidation regarding leveraging ArcServer toward mass client applications…. if not frustration. While the commercial products (i.e. Google / Yahoo / MS / et) are attractive for providing fundamental capabilities our client’s requirements often call for more a more robust solution with broad geospatial resources; which in turn pushes us away from the commoditized services provided by the giants and back to the ESRI stack. At first blush the only way to tap into the true potential of AGS is through ADF development which introduces costly resource requirements (ie. programmer, training, support, maintenance, et) unbearable to most shops; including mine. This leaves one staring at the vanilla ADF application (What, no print function?!). Many of my colleagues have found themselves in the same position.
Fortunately there are some third party vendors out there who recognized a similar shortfall with ArcIMS and have developed applications to configure, deploy, and manage robust web based GIS applications with minimal effort and are applying the same business model to ArcServer. These products remove the prohibitive costs associated with leveraging ArcServer’s capabilities via software development with a suite of tools that allow the shop to configure and publish a client application out of the box, tailored to the specific business requirements of the client. It could be argued that ESRI’s business partners will be the saving grace of ArcServer.
In the interest of full disclosure our shop is a consumer of Latitude Geographic’s product line. While we believe their products and services are best of breed it was the strategic business angle that their and other third party vendors provided that got our attention. We now have the capability to provide a wide area of GIS services that leverage our investment in the existing enterprise infrastructure for a fraction of the costs associated with internal or contracted custom software production. That said we’re very interested to see where they take ArcServer with this business model.
@Dave (late reply, uh
Yes, it would be great to have PostGIS support in ArcSDE 9.3. But to be honest, I doubt it. ESRI could do the same thing as with Oracle and create their own spatial datatype in PostgreSQL, ignoring PostGIS.
And if they would offer a direct connect to PostGIS (skipping some ESRI functionality) is also doubtful. See also http://geotips.blogspot.com/2006/12/postgis-for-sde.html
Stephan,
Some of Paul’s comments has been contradicted by the ESRI SDE developers at the ESRI UC this summer… though, I still think many his concerns are still warranted. They stated they would support the built-in PostGIS implementation and also provide ESRI implementation–not sure if it will be ST_GEOMETRY or SDEBINARY. In either case, it’ll be your choice to use the PostGIS or ESRI implementation.
One point that Paul fails to consider is with Oracle Spatial is that it is broken. Why should ESRI or anyone else embrace a failing technology? Oracle Spatial queries require the use of optimizer hints because of a half-finished implementation… The query planner/cost estimator produces results that are not only wrong–but will also flat out lie to you. They have multiple versions of the same query–some optimized to use the spatial index, others not (why?!). Spatial joins often force you to materialize intermediate tables or force you to use non-optimized spatial functions. Simple spatial queries cause multiple table hits… It can perform well, but only under very contrived circumstances or with the time/expense of an Oracle guru.
Sounds like a smart move to offer an alternative.
I have not tried PostGIS myself so I don’t know how well implemented it is. The comments I’ve heard from a few coworkers who use it have painted an ugly picture–particuarly with how you are forced to use the spatial indices. But that may be because they come from an Oracle background–their motto? If it’s not Oracle, it’s evil.