There has been an upswing in Manifold comments and it appears that people need to get it out of their system. So rather than every post become Manifold v. XXXXX, post it here.
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James Fee - jfee@weogeo.com
James works for WeoGeo helping people organize, share and monetize their geo-content.
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I was laughing before, but now I have to say this is hilarious.
lol*
I had a cracked manifold once…
heh
Yeah but this is no fun, having an asylum post for us Manifold Lunatics.
Ceiling Cat is watching you play with your Manifold.
@Petz: Don’t forget Lefty, he’s as nuts as the rest of ya.
U R KILLIN ME
Every day, I learn something new
James,
You should know by now that every time you direct something AT Manifold.. they never bite.. the Manifold user prefers to come on an oblique angle to the topic at hand
I’m in ur $300 spatial SQL analyzin’ ur data
Haz ArcGIS got mah bukket or haz Manifold got mah bukket?! I MUST NOW whear mah SQLDataBukket is interfaced!
Gotta love Manifold. Any chance they might update the website to use a secure order system?
Speaking of Manifold, how many people work at this company? Is the primary development done in the USA or overseas? This is a big reason to support ESRI.
Manifold got PwON3D!!!11
IM IN UR ANALYSIS, CRACKIN DA FEATUREZ
@Grinder
Do you drive a Hummer?
IM IN UR BLOG POSTEN TEH ARGUMENTZ
@James & Dimitri Dimitri posted a 2 line comment! Can the apocalypse be far behind?
No Hummer Chris C. I drive a Yugo.
Matt…I was thinking the same thing. What has the world come to…..only two lines.
Grinder……I bet you also sing the song, In my Yugo. Not sure the proper name of the song, but that is one of the main lines. I love those parity songs.
KoS
ps…..manifold, isn’t that discrimination? Where’s womanifold??
dang man I hate cats. Does that mean ESRI folks have to hate cats? I always pictured Jack D as a cat person (the dorky red glasses gave it away)
I’d love to leave an opinion on Manifold. Anyond got a link to a trial download…?
@ j wallis:
I prefer gerbils actually.
OrbitGIS is the future.
have you considered contacts…maybe even red rimmed contacts?
Is that Toonces the driving cat? Good to see he’s doing well.
Here’s an episode where I made some maps for a City Council meeting:
http://www.truveo.com/?method=truveo.videos.getVideos&query=id%3A2518335013&play=1
I’m sorry I subscribed to this thread…
It’s been many moons since I’ve walked with a Manifold user….
There seems to be a real difference between “Manifold guys” commenting in “ESRI threads” and vice versa, at least on this blog. When a couple of Manifold fans enter the discussion about ArcGIS, they bring up arguments. When a couple of ESRI fans decide that they want to say something about Manifold, you end up with a complete s*** like this thread.
It seems to me, James, that you are starting these threads because you are feeling guilty. You have stated numerous times that you are not familiar with Manifold, and you have had many people suggesting that you indeed try it out and look into what it can and can not do. This has been going on for years. You might not have had a lot of free time (who does have free time these days), but you understand that this is no excuse for continuing to be blissfully ignorant of something that powers so many discussions on your blog. So you are feeling guilty and are starting these please-discuss-Manifold-here threads acknowledging the presence of something that occuppies your attention, and perhaps in an attempt to get some creative dissing of Manifold from its opponents that would allow you to convince yourself that Manifold is not so important and that you can continue to be ignorant of it.
This is not the way to do it, James. You have to decide whether or not you want to get familiar with Manifold. If you do want to get familiar with Manifold, put in the time to explore it and start discussing its pros and cons from the point of knowledge. Many people will help you, I am sure. If you do not want to get familiar with Manifold, throw the Manifold box that you have into a trash can and move on to other things. If the proponents of Manifold are right, as Manifold grows, you will eventually have to face it and deal with the choice of whether or not to become familiar with it again, but that’s the future and so it might or might not happen. In both cases, stop posting these empty threads (“it appears that people need to get it out of their system” – come on, James, you are speaking with your inner voice here). You are only making it worse for yourself.
wow and I thought I was blaming my Dad for my issues.
@mrcc:
Or, it could have just been a fun way to spend a morning, poking fun at the mainfold/esri “holy wars” that pop up now and then.
Fun, you remember fun, right? Do they have that at Manifold? You know, fun….
@mrcc: I think you are way off base here. Take a look at the Vista post from earlier this week.
James writes about MapObjects and of course some Manifold user inserts the “$100″ API argument. He never brings Manifold up on his own other than when Manifold users start hijacking threads here which happens way too much.
Besides he already said he can’t stand the GUI so I don’t think he’s ever going to start use it.
As for Manifold growing? You folks need to get out of your little group and see reality. If anything it going to take ESRI down, it will be Oracle/Microsoft SQL Server.
@anon:
‘He never brings Manifold up on his own’
manifold returns
fighting manifold or fighting the way I’ve learned gis
creating a simple map in manifold
LOL, OK Chris C. I obviously bring it up all the time.
Partially agree with anon…
Oracle/SQL Server are definitely a threat to ESRI’s efforts to dominate the GIS enterprise world (in fact I think if SQL Server get’s spatial right, then that will be the death warrant for ESRI’s ArcServer technology). But not desktop GIS. I don’t really see a true competitor there (it ain’t Manifold, UDig, OrbitGIS, GRASS, etc).
@deadplanet: While I do agree that the Entreprise GIS database will likely be either Oracle Spatial or SQL Katmai, and SDE will loose a lot of ground, I do not understand on what you base your analysis that Manifold is not a competitor for desktop GIS tasks? Can you clarify why ?
‘But not desktop GIS. I don’t really see a true competitor there (it ain’t Manifold, UDig, OrbitGIS, GRASS, etc).’
Here’s an example of why the above is way off.
I’ve been working with colleagues from another office providing them with topographic plans and watershed analysis generated from DEMs, all using Manifold. They want to be able to do their own thing and are looking to purchase their own desktop GIS.
I gave them a demo of Manifold and ArcGIS, they wanted to go with ArcGIS, not because of any percieved limitataions of Manifold, but more with ArcGIS being seen as the corporate GIS, however when I mentioned the likely cost of ArcGIS to get the features they needed they did a 180 and decided to go with Manifold.
There is a huge market of potential GIS users who cannot or will not pay ESRI prices and if there are real alternatives, not just Manifold, they will choose them every time.
That huge potential market doesn’t even know about Manifold and probably never will. Face it, Manifold is a niche in a niche and that is all it will be.
oh man, here we go again. I remember getting wowed by a great demo from Dimitri a few years ago.. server was way cool but please.. when will they ever hire a PR and marketing firm? LOL
this time I’m not subscribing to emailk updates from this thread as my mail server simply can’t handle it ;0)
Hmm, so you dont want to even give the product a try because their PR does not look professional enough for you? Well keep on munching the ESRI UC buffet koolaid then.
Petz: I don’t think that is a fair assessment at all. The folks that read this blog are in the position to influence much of the software purchases of their organizations.
ESRI takes care of those folks at the UC and it will take more than insulting their users to get them to try Manifold when they get a free trip to San Diego every year. Years of investment has been made on ESRI and no one is going to throw that away no matter what Manifold.net says or does.
‘when they get a free trip to San Diego every year’
Someone has to pay for it I wonder who?
That is why they are in power and you aren’t.
Won’t someone please think of the children using free, Open Source GIS tools!!
R/GDAL is a great combo in the toolkit, alongside Manifold
@anon: “James writes about MapObjects and of course some Manifold user inserts the ‘$100′ API argument.”
So. Is that a bad argument? Does not the price play a role in comparing products which do similar things? If someone wants to argue the degree of similarity between any set of ESRI products and Manifold, would not that be a useful discussion?
But OK, regardless of whether or not the price argument is good or appropriate, let’s say that James got so tired of it that he does not want to see it anymore. Is starting a discuss-Manifold-here thread, presumably “for people to vent out” going to help? Does the history of such threads in this blog show that they have helped in the past? Of course, not.
@anon: “He never brings Manifold up on his own other than when Manifold users start hijacking threads here which happens way too much.”
Well, this thread is obviously James bringing up Manifold on his own. Just look at the title. If you are going to say that this thread is special, I will not disagree with you. This thread and in fact the whole position of James on Manifold are special, but perhaps not for the reasons you have in mind. The thread and the position are special in that despite Manifold having made significant inroads into the trenches of the traditional GIS world echoed by the numerous appearances of references to Manifold on this blog, James chooses to ignore it instead of learning what it is.
The real reason for this and other “oh-I-am-so-tired-of-crazy-Manifold-fans” threads is not Manifold fans banging the fellow visitors of this blog over the head, but this rather odd indecisive position of James. He is reluctant to put in the time required to learn Manifold, yet he keeps seeing all these folks touting Manifold in increasing numbers year over year. This bothers him.
To add to what I have written, I could not care less whether or not James will eventually learn / like Manifold. I myself think Manifold is a great product, but to each his own. I just want to point out that Manifold fans are far more friendly and intelligent than how James is trying to paint them on this blog, and that the real reason for starting stupid patronising “here’s your playground boys, don’t hurt each other too much” threads like this one is not the outrageous behavior of Manifold fans but a personal issue of James.
Petz: I don’t think that is a fair assessment at all. The folks that read this blog are in the position to influence much of the software purchases of their organizations.
ESRI takes care of those folks at the UC and it will take more than insulting their users to get them to try Manifold when they get a free trip to San Diego every year. Years of investment has been made on ESRI and no one is going to throw that away no matter what Manifold.net says or does.
James: As I understand this comment, basically you think that users are staying with ESRI because they are bribed by nice UC and PR and marketing. Isnt that the complete opposite to making an informed decision based on needs and capabilities, as well as price (certainly one of the less important issues) for a GIS package that suits the needs of the individual or organisation?
Wow! Up to 46 comments so far- Good Job James! Although I don’t think anyone has understood the REAL point of this entry by James:
That is one d&$* scary looking cat in the picture!
@Tom-tom: “Up to 46 comments so far- Good Job James!”
Are you suggesting that James uses these threads to bring readers to his site? That must be some new traffic generating model you invented here in that you generate traffic by being proficient in something, not ignorant.
Of course, you could also argue that with the number of people who (can afford to) use Manifold being very different compared to the number of people who (can afford to) use ESRI products, even dropping the word “Manifold” in the dumb manner we see here can generate more traffic than having elaborate discussions regarding ESRI products, but I bet James would disagree.
Yeah, you missed the point mrcc, i was making fun of the religous zealousy people have with their software – thus pointing out the cat. Hey, you like your software and I’ll like mine (kinda like the old arguement of US men in the 70’s and 80’s – Are you a Chevy man or Ford man?) Either way 46 responded and in the end, nobody changed anyone else’s minds… so do you all feel like James has duped you into playing contestant on “Crossfire” or one of those ridiculously boring political pundit shows?
Bravo James! Now let’s get back to the real arguement: Coke or Pepsi?
..forgot to add: Not too fond of cats either, I’m a dog person. Any debate on cats & dogs? Anyone?
Cats are varmits!!
My best was at 750 yards.
Seems someone crapped in mrcc’s manifold wheaties.
KoS
@Tom-tom:
I am not feeling duped because I can see what is going on and I have a good guess as to why this is going on. Ask yourself what all those comments of yours and several other people are doing on this supposedly technical blog. You don’t like cats, big deal. How about discussing what is in the title of this thread, that is, Manifold? Ah? Don’t hear anyone from the “I am not using Manifold and I am proud of it” camp. All you see in this thread are the same old, same old arguments on how Manifold users are too religious or too destructive or how bad the Manifold PR is. So, who was duped worse, me trying to stop this nonsense and have a discussion related to GIS or people posting stuff about cats and “having fun”?
I agree I might be wasting my time, but boy, you are wasting your time on much less productive stuff than me. If this is your idea of having fun, I am kind of sorry for you.
I taught a GIS course this past semester for our university, and used both Manifold and ArcGIS. Half the students preferred Manifold and the other half preferred ArcGIS. The two software packages actually complement one another very well; both are in my toolbox along with Global Mapper (I know, I know-not officially GIS. It reprojects faster than anything else I have used)
@ Chris C: You giving one example of a potential GIS client deciding to go with Manifold instead of ESRI because it’s less expensive does NOT prove that Manifold will ever be a real competitor with ArcGIS.
Like it or not, there is a huge infrastructure that has grown around ESRI-developed GIS technology. Big-money clients will almost always go with a product that has a big market-share, large number of users, has training available for new users, and is considered the standard for an industry.
I am by no means an ESRI-Kool-Aid drinker, as I’ve wanted punch my ArcGIS software many times over the years (if punching software was possible.) But until Manifold has a big market-share, large number of users, training, and is considered a standard for the GIS industry, it will always be a small-time player. I’m not saying that it’s right, but that’s the way it is.
Personally, I’ve considered starting my own private cartography consulting business for years, but I’ve always been daunted by paying ESRI’s inflated software licensing fees. I would LOVE to be find a powerful GIS desktop that would be relatively affordable to a small business. When I first heard of Manifold, I thought “Finally! This could be it!” But guess what?
NO SOFTWARE DEMOS!
A huge percentage of major software manufacturers now offer either trial editions or scaled-down version of their fully-priced products. If Manifold is so concerned about blowing ESRI out of the water, why not offer a trial demo?
If Manifold is such a great product, than have some confidence in it, bite the bullet regarding the few people out there who will hack your demo, and show the GIS user community that there is a viable option to ESRI!
So spending a few dollars on shipping for the 30-day trial doesn’t interest you? If you were really serious you wouldn’t let that stop you trying it. Whatever you say about the piracy issue Manifold would have to up prices due to the loss of sales.
I agree that a lot of ESRI users won’t move because of their investment in the software, but that isn’t Manifold’s target market, there is a much larger market out there that have never heard of ESRI – a market used to paying $100s not $1000s for software.
My example is exactly the sort of market Manifold is aimed at – they have never used GIS before, but when they found out it could do a job for them – watershed analysis in this case – they looked at the options (lucky for them I could give them a choice) and when they realized a $600 program could do the same as $6500 program it was a no-brainer.
Just followed the link to “The Earth Is Square”. Here is the core of what is in there:
“This came up the the #planetgeospatial channel when talking about James latest Manifold post.
[12:37]В В В В В В i’ve grown tired of Manifold, i uninstalled it because the UI is so difficult to use. [12:37]В В В В В В GIMP is probably a better UI than Manifold and that says something [12:38]В В В В В В ouch [12:40]В В В В В В even World Wind has a better UI”
Excuse me for a moment…
BWAHAHAHHHAHA!
I am back now.
So, James, you have finally made your decision about Manifold. Apparently, it is too difficult to use. Convenient, isn’t it?! Now you can elevate yourself from the position of “I have never heard about Manifold but its fans are crazy” to “I tried to use it and it is junk”. All for a few mouse clicks. Strategic!
What exactly is so difficult about the UI? I have only ever seen a single note of yours related to this and that note was discussing the inability to drag-n-drop files from Windows Explorer. Is that all there was or did you have other gripes? Did you ever ask for help? Heck, did you ever get past creating a map?
All in all, way to go, James! Continue growing your thick skin. It is the only thing you seem to have and with this kind of attitude you are going to need every bit of it.
To clarify, in the chat above, the 1st, 2nd and 4th quotes belong to “JamesFee”, and the 3rd quote to a fellow named “T_Servo”. You can verify this by following the link to “The Earth Is Square”. My original post had the names in angle brackets and so they got cut.
Dude.. back off on the kool-aid, you are spilling it while foaming at the mouth.
I am not sure if you realize it.. but you ARE showing out as a typical, raving mad, foaming at the mouth, HAS to support “X” fan boy that just needs to attack every chance he gets.
You talk about James thick skin.. fine, we ALL know that already.. but you are showing that your skin is also so thick that all you see is Manifold and nothing else. You, mrcc are just AS BAD and you don’t even see it. Have you READ James’s “using manifold” posts? I don’t think you did honestly because then you would know those statements are false and out of some place dark and smelly.
You think you are making points but all you are doing is giving everyone else fodder to laugh at. I don’t think anyone is taking you seriously at all, and if people were.. I think you lost them.
I honestly think you need a break and to chill out.. maybe even a time out, you are acting like a 12 year old kid that doesn’t get his way.
@ mrcc
Honestly I humbly suggest that the powers that be in Manifold should take a step back and reconsider their business strategy. Those in a position to significantly influence or absolutely direct the procurement of GIS solutions are not solely concerned about the widgets of desktop software A vs. the widgets of software B. It could be argued that they look at issues from a holistic perspective. They weigh such decisions on the merit of a company’s market share, fiscal health, support, services, price points, license models, community footprint, business partners, and yes, marketing just to name a few. They are thinking about risk management and return on investment. This does not remove small companies from their radar; in fact large companies are often disregarded for not positioning themselves accordingly. In order to win the hearts and minds of those at the helm of the enterprise these issues are paramount, not just the technical viability of the vendor’s product. When a vendor find’s the sweet spot between business conditions and a strong product they can charge what the market will bear.
I think enterprise leadership loves to see healthy competition between ESRI and other vendors; it inevitably will keep their product line strong if they want to survive. But the smaller vendors must resist the urge to play the roll of David when facing Goliath; rather they should focus their energy on empathizing with the leadership of their target market for strategic direction. Otherwise their growth will be stunted as their focus primarily relates to being the little guy.
Just a thought.
Really, if some one doesn’t like the UI. Why should they force themselves to use it?
I hate compact cars, much rather drive my suv. Both get me from point a to point b.
Am I wrong to drive a suv vs. a compact? I should dislike, suffer through using a product. Just to satisfy someone else personal preference?
KoS
vector,
good points on the acquisition of software. However, that is not what Manifold is interested in. Manifold wants to sell loads of software. Their strategy is not to sell to the end user. It is to sell to the developer.
Here is an example:
Widget developer buys Manifold for $245.
Widget developer then develops some kind of cool spatial application: i.e. vineyard management, golf course management, some geocoding and spatial solution for an internet service.
Widget developer then sells his software for $500 (including the $100 run-time) to thousands of people.
Alot of those end users know nothing about GIS. They just want to do something like enter their store # and determine the total revenue potential within 500 miles or something. But, they are a Manifold sale nonetheless (via the runtime version packaged with the Widget developers software).
That is why you don’t see Manifold users out there. They are business owners, florists, septic companies, golf courses, utilities, etc. who are using some application that, unknown to them, uses Manifold as the engine.
It is quite a brilliant strategy by Manifold when you think of it. Selling to one developer who then distributes the product to 100 people is way easier than trying to sell to 100 end users.
@mrcc: Why so personal champ?
“They weigh such decisions on the merit of a company’s market share, fiscal health, support, services, price points, license models, community footprint, business partners, and yes, marketing just to name a few”
Why is the product not mentioned in this assessment rationale? It appears that Manifold don’t want people buying their software unless they want the software. That is fine by me – it keeps the price down and development high.
@Chad:
I see it truly is hard to get you to discuss anything apart from the behavior of other people. The chat you posted on your blog and the posts of yours in this thread are both good examples. You do not concern yourself with the differences between the UIs of different products, but will echo (not just relay!) other people’s opinions about it. Similarly, instead of contributing your opinion on some technical strength / weakness of Manifold (which, one would suppose, is what this thread was intended for), you are either trying to be “fun” or are throwing your body around seemingly to cover James from my “attacks”.
I have read James’s “using Manifold” posts and I did that as they were appearing. Could you explain to me just which statements (of mine?) “are false and out of some place dark and smelly”?
Spend no time on helping me realize I am not being taken seriously. I do not need your opinion on that.
@KoS: “Really, if some one doesn’t like the UI. Why should they force themselves to use it?”
They should not.
Having said that, if they are trying to badmouth the product by linking to negative things said by others, they should not act all innocent when there is a backlash.
Witness this bit with a catchy title, which was then retracted on the original site, but not on James’:
http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2006/12/01/manifold-a-train-wreck-can-it-be-true/
There are others like it, as well.
@KoS: “Am I wrong to drive a suv vs. a compact? I should dislike, suffer through using a product. Just to satisfy someone else personal preference?”
No. Drive whatever you want. Just not badmouth the choice of others. Or, if you must, prepare to hear other people questioning your position.
@James Fee: “Why so personal champ?”
Because this is your personal blog and I assume that what is on this blog is an opinion of yours. If it was a company blog, I would have criticized the company who owned it.
You perfectly know, James, that you have been badmouthing Manifold for a long time. You have been trying to walk this thin line where you would make an effort not to say anything directly confrontational about technical aspects of Manifold, but would skip no chance of linking to bad opinions of others and expressing your frustration about non-technical aspects, for years. Recently you have started criticizing Manifold directly, very vaguely (eg, claiming that its UI is worse than that of GIMP, what kind of no-detail BS criticism is that) but in no uncertain terms.
I frankly could not care less, but your blog is being read by many people who might get an impression that you actually are familiar with Manifold and that your criticism, direct or indirect, is justified. I do not think this is fair.
That’s it.
In the end, James, and I really hope the end of this thread is very close, do you think the thread has achieved its intended purpose?
Similarly to other threads:
it has been ruined from the start by (surprise!) non-sensical comments from people who are either indifferent to Manifold or do not like it, who attempted to be “fun”;
it has eventually got to restating the usual non-technical arguments against Manifold, such as the absence of a trial edition, and the alleged roughness of their PR / fanbois (who, oh the horrors, instead of switching to products of companies who know how to treat their users on UCs, always poison the discussions of GIS products with the “$100″ arguments), with all of them having already been beaten to death on this blog;
it has seen a number of comments from Manifold proponents who have been dispatching the usual BS thrown up at them, who were looking for at least one (ONE!) technical objection worth answering or discussing, without success;
it has not resulted in anyone calming down and joining their hands, or anything else positive, nor has it revealed any particular deficiency of Manifold you could exagerrate into a separate blog in the future, if you were looking for such a thing.
Was there anything else you were after? Were you trying to get me and other proponents of Manifold to demonstrate our aggressiveness to the users of other GIS products? If so, I think you have failed at that, too.
If the thread did not achieve its intended purpose, whatever it was, I would repeat my suggestion that stopping the tradition of having these silly “Manifold-sandbox-here” threads would indeed be a good thing to do. Let’s just save the energy.
@mrcc: I’m glad you noticed that my picture of a cat wanting a copy of Manifold wasn’t designed to calm anyone down.
Ah so rather than come up with a good argument you insult me personally. Nice…
Since day I installed Manifold I’ve said I didn’t care for it. I think I’ve been pretty consistent about that.
That is because as I’ve said before Manifold is capable. The fact that I don’t like to use it doesn’t mean that it can’t do its job. I don’t care for MapInfo either, but people seem to do pretty well with it.
I like to break up my frustration of ESRI posts in this blog with pictures of cats wanting a copy of Manifold. If you have a problem with that you’d best not hang around.
Were you on IRC when I made that statement or did you just read the little quote that Chad put on his blog? I’m guessing you are jumping to conclusions because I said much more about Manifold, ESRI, Autodesk, and GUI there. Before you start to get on the high horse, you might want to have an idea about what you are talking about.
Hmm, I criticize ESRI here more than anything else, but I’m sure you don’t have any problem with that?
You are taking all this way too personal here. You ability to get your work done with Manifold or whatever you use in your daily activities isn’t impacted by a picture of a cat or the lack of my ability to get my hands around Manifold.
What is funny about all this is the cat was originally saying he wanted Google Earth, but I changed it after someone posted that they wanted a copy of Manifold in one of my other posts. Dimitri saw some humor in the thread as did most other people. I can only assume you find my post of the “Iraqi Information Minister” and the official ESRI blogs offensive and the FOSS4GIS post with the hippies on it offensive, the MechaGoogle Earth slapping ArcGIS Explorer picture offensive (and that is just on the front page)?
I think I’m pretty fair with my criticism across the board.
@James Fee:
I am sorry. What it was then that you wanted accomplished with this thread?
Wow! It was you who was insulting to the users of Manifold numerous times, including in this thread, no late than in comment 6. Now, you can say that comment 6 and other comments of yours in this and other threads were friendly nudges, but after a couple of such nudges you can’t really take offence at similar things pointed at yourself.
Besides, what exactly did you expect me or anyone else to do in this sandbox thread? If you expected some serious discussion on the merits of Manifold, please tell that to the authors of comments 1 through 26 which all came before I first posted. They clearly did not get the message.
You’ve been pretty consistent in posting negative links and keeping the talk focused on non-technical stuff, such as the web site. That is, you’ve been consistent at badmouthing Manifold, whether directly or indirectly. The intensity varied but the direction was pretty stable.
Where? The search for “manifold capable” on your site returns no matches. Same for Google.
Seriously, it is the first time I hear you saying that Manifold is indeed capable of something. The only positive comment of yours I have been able to locate (all right, since I was able to locate this one, there is probably another one or two, somewhere) is “Manifold 7x is FAST”, the power of which has been quickly degraded by a quick follow-up post of yours. Other comments, much more numerous, have been along the lines of “I don’t get it”, “illogical”, “counter intuitive”, “I tried that, but” and so on. If the fact that Manifold is a worthwile product has been your opinion all along, you sure hid it well.
No, I haven’t been on IRC, and yes I am jumping to conclusions. You know why? Because as far as I can judge from this blog, you certainly could have badmouthed Manifold just in the manner seen in the excerpt from the IRC log posted by another blogger. Would not be the first time. Hell, you have started this thread as if to separate rabid Manifold fans from the respectable public, so that people could “get it out of their system”.
Now, did you say or perhaps meant to say something different than is in the excerpt? Or have you just been meaning to throw clouds on this so that those who read this blog for the first time give you more of the benefit of the doubt? If you have indeed said something different, I am ready to apologize.
Look, I am simply thinking that your links and words grossly misrepresent Manifold. I don’t know if you do the same for other software products, but I don’t care about them and so I don’t try to defend them. But Manifold I do care about, and so sometimes when I see what I perceive to be unjustified criticism of Manifold, I raise to their defense. So, either make your criticism of Manifold constructive (and for that, you would have to learn it) or refrain from criticising. Simple as that.
mrcc: Dimitri seems to enjoy the blog:
Maybe that has changed, but I’ve got to say his comment at the beginning of this thread was one of the funniest things I’ve ever read.
But then again, maybe you are better than all of us.
@David Davis:
I agree about Dimitri’s comment being funny, but, well, look at this comment one more time. Dimitri wonders when Lefty, LOL and others will start talking about Manifold instead of making disingenuous remarks while pretending to be funny. Same for me.
As to Dimitri’s words about James’ integrity and investment of effort and intelligence into his dialogs, well, I have a different opinion. Dimitri might have said something different too, was he not in the shoes of a salesman who necessarily has to cater to everyone.
Look, I am simply thinking that your links and words grossly misrepresent Manifold. I don’t know if you do the same for other software products, but I don’t care about them and so I don’t try to defend them. But Manifold I do care about, and so sometimes when I see what I perceive to be unjustified criticism of Manifold, I raise to their defense. So, either make your criticism of Manifold constructive (and for that, you would have to learn it) or refrain from criticising. Simple as that.
mrcc….James can say what the hell he wants to. It’s his blog. Where do you get off telling him he can’t say a thing about Manifold unless it’s constructive? I bet your one who likes having the though police. Especially when it agrees with you.
He can say what he wants, just as you can. Every one has an opinion, whether or not it’s unfounded or personal.
So what he doesn’t like the UI, neither do I. Just because you thing differently doesn’t mean I or James is wrong or he’s misrepresentating the product. Not sure how someone can misrepresent their own feelings of a product. Given it’s thier feelings, not others.
Maybe you should start your own blog to combat the uninformed or those who have a differing opinion. You seem so fired-up over this, go knock yourself out. Your first thread could be how stupid, uniformed people are when they don’t like the UI.
KoS
oops….the first paragraph was suppose to be a quote. I thought I put int he right tags.
KoS
Ah mrcc, you say Dimitri might be disingenuous? Glad we agree on something.
As to James’ comment toward manifold users in the begining, I think that was more of a slam against me than against manifold, but since you are so hypersenstive I guess you think everything is about YOU.
Wow! What a waste of time this thread is. Go back to work, folks. Nothing to see here.
Since this thread is so far gone I thought i’d add a little rant.
Did anyone get the UC Technical workshops on DVD? I did and let me tell you this is irony defined.
For a company that offers ZERO products for Apple OS X they sure went to a lot of trouble making the DVDs compatible with macs……so much that they actually made them LESS compatible with Windows! The DVDs REQUIRE Quicktime to be installed to view them.
ESRI, the person you hired to do this needs to be fired. All videos should have come encoded in Windows Media Video for playing right out of the box with Windows Media Player. No one wants to install more bloatware quicktime. It is bad enough that you have to use the supplied PDFs(!) to jump to a movie file and open it.
If I had paid for this I would have demanded a refund….maybe my company should send a bill for the manpower invloved to actually make these videos useful.
Why don’t all you Manifold freaks go back to Chris’ “Free James from ESRI” blog – oh, thats right, you already are there – all 3 of you!
Why should be even be talking about a product that nobody uses.
Your product is non-existant, now go away – nobody will notice you are gone!
You see, James, nobody likes threads like this, me included. I know this will sound boring, but, well, I told you so. And I honestly hope that you will stop creating these silly threads in the future.
I would have stopped now, but since you mentioned it, would you mind clarifying as to what exactly you meant when you said that Manifold’s UI is worse than that of GIMP, on IRC? I doubt there would be anyone who would not consider that to be badmouthing Manifold, something you deny to be doing. You seem to be implying that your quote has been taken out of context. Is that so? Or was it all smoke and mirrors, an attempt to deceive the readers?
@mrcc
You could always get off your lazy arse and (oh my gosh!) READ the channel logs! And see the context of the discussion there that related to his comment which I found funny.
But in short.. since you seem to /miss it every time it is mentioned/….
James installed Manifold, twice. Used it (or tried to use it) several times and (from reading his /blog posts about his use of Manifold/) posted several times his irritations with trying to use Manifold and the lack of properly written and organized support/documentation (or at how childish some of it is written). I believe he also posted about the UI as well, I have not re-read all of his Manifold posts lately.
But in short he has a right to criticize because he has tried several times to use the software.
And by the way.. you have no idea how many people are laughing at this thread and at you…
So much noise… I did not know I could get access to the logs myself. Where do I find them (I tried Googling them to no avail)?
ditto. I can has channel irc?
There is no log for #planetgeospatial. But you can join the discussion yourself.
http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2007/05/24/planet-geospatial-on-irc/
@James Fee:
That’s great, but would you clarify the following words of yours:
Would you provide more context for your words (cited earlier in the thread) that can certainly be characterized as badmouthing Manifold? Or did you mean to trick the readers of this blog into believing that your words might have been taken out of context, when their interpretation was indeed correct?
@mrcc:
You have no leg to stand on if you feel this way. James can be critical of every GIS package out there except Manifold? He can crack jokes about Google/ESRI but not Manifold? Are you serious?
@jwallis
Quicktime support = Mac compatible and less windows compatible? Lawlz, time to download a new copy of netscape and/or throw out your Zune and install iTunes.
@Erin:
In that I won’t care (but maybe someone else will), yes. He can even be critical of Manifold without me uttering a word, too, as long as his criticism is constructive. He just can not expect me and other users of Manifold to sit there silently when he is badmouthing it left and right.
I thought I have expressed myself clearly the first time though.
@mrcc:
“…did you mean to trick the readers of this blog…”
who are you? If you’re going to accuse people in an open forum I would expect that you at least use your real name.
I can’t believe you actually think James has to answer to any of your demands, go write your own blog if you want your rigid rules to be followed but please stop the conspiracy theories about hidden agendas.
It seems obvious to me and I would assume most others that James takes equal shots at everyone (not that he even has to) and most of his commentary is sarcastic in tone. Lighten up.
ok, that’s enough time wasted on this topic…
brian
So, James, I am asking you for the 3rd time now, were the following words of yours:
…taken out of context or not?
You implied that this might be the case, but did not provide a direct answer for 2 times in a row. Is it that the answer is “no, these words were not taken out of context”?
mrcc: do you have a chemical imbalance or something?
@doug
WMP comes preinstalled with windows, Quicktime does not.
and installing iTunes in a corporate environment is asking for trouble.
@mrcc: Seriously, lighten up. We’re talking about software here.
I find this blog’s sarcastic tone regarding GIS software entirely appropriate and fun to read. James is pretty even-handed about doling out his commentary on GIS technology, and yet there’s always at least one Manifold user who is morally outraged by anything less-than-worshipful that is written regarding Manifold. I have yet to read any outraged comments by ESRI/MapInfo/FOSS GIS users in response to James’ good-hum0red criticisms.
AAAARGGGHHH!!! I’ve had it! James, please close this thread down.
Would anyone interested in talking about this little known, obscure, and unfunctional product called Manifold please go to http://freejamesri.wordpress.com.
Then, all 5 of you, and Dimitri can have a great time patting one another on the back.
@Doug and J Wallis:
Any video online should be available as flash in the browser. That eliminates most of the problem with QT vs WMV. I’d say QT download is important for iPod users and WMV is important for windows users. Touch choice on which one, but all can use Flash….
@mrcc: What’s wrong with you man? Are you that insecure?
Who the fuck cares which software is better than another?
James…..I think I figure out how the dust storm started, the one which hit the Phoenix area.
All the hot-air expanding rapidly from mrcc.
KoS
@james
yeah thats true, even moreso since you have to use Adobe Acrobat for the session lists, so might as well use flash and have an all adobe solution. I could live with that solution before having to put Quicktime on every machine.
Skipping the usual nonsense in 91, 94, 97…
@deadplanets:
I will. As soon as James begins talking about software instead of throwing mud at it in the form of knee-jerk comments.
That’s not it. The outrage stems from unsubstantiated quotes like “the Manifold’s UI is worse than that of GIMP” and links to similarly unsubstantiated negative pieces on Manifold in other blogs, like “Manifold a train wreck”, which has been retracted by the original author (you might want to see why).
All right, James. You have chosen not to clarify yourself after being asked numerous times. Your silence though speaks volumes.
You have once again been caught badmouthing Manifold, tried to trick the public into thinking you were not badmouthing, but was unsuccessful. If this won’t teach you that being dishonest can have negative consequences, I don’t know what will.
@mrcc
What about 89?
You have chosen not to identify yourself while still throwing around personal attacks, that speaks volumes about your character. If you cannot sign your own name to such accusatory comments, I doubt anyone can take you seriously.
Well, I do not have a public website. My name is not likely to tell you anything, but if you would like to know it, tell me and I will send it to you via email. I do not work for Manifold, but I own a copy of it, if you are interested.
mrcc: I’ve been going over some of the Manifold threads on this blog and I think you’ve posted under many different names (I’m sure James can check the IPs to verify). This one among others really reaks of your tone:
http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2006/12/06/visiting-the-in-laws/#comment-3296
You can’t even post under one name even if it isn’t your own. Poor KoS has had arguments with you in the past and didn’t even know it was you.
Grow up.
I’m not poor…….I’m rich!! Well, in my own mind. In other’s minds, I’m rich, rich in BS.
KoS
Speaking of installing quicktime, every page I view on this site asks me to install the QuickTime add-on. This is fairly new to me, what on this site would need quicktime?
The Manifold guys brag about how they don’t waste their money on marketing. Instead, Dimitri sends punks like mrcc to the blogs to harass everyone and defend their second-rate p.o.s technology!
@matt: Which page? My blog? I’m not sure what might be causing that. I’ve tested it on IE and FF and I don’t get that message.
I get the quicktime thing too. As soon as I visit spatiallyadjusted
IE I assume (I don’t think FF would give that sort of “error”).
I’ve looked over the template and I can’t figure out where it is coming from. Maybe the Flickr widget is causing it (I guess because I have quicktime installed it isn’t complaining about it).
sorry, yep IE 7.
It’s not an error, it’s a notification that something is trying to get installed. Standard IE verification for file downloads etc.
“The website wants to run the following add-on: ‘QuickTimeCheck Scriptable Object’ from ‘Apple Computer, Inc. (unverified publisher)’. If you trust the website . . . “
Well I meant that its an error because AFAIK I’m not serving up Quicktime.
OK I figured out what is causing it, the Google Adsense ads (not all of them). I’m going to try and figure out how to eliminate that error.
Yeah fuck google
That’s an aspect of this site I hadn’t thought of: this is great free advertising for Manifold, obviously – but our time here is great for Google in a more direct sense. And I thought I didn’t like Apple Quicktime.
Unbelievable what you can start with a picture of a funky gray cat! I love cyberspace. No where else can I have this much fun for FREE. It costs less than Mani and is funnier than Arc. James, once more, you da Man!
I should say at the outset, I have been using ESRI products for over a decade, and am happy with the breadth of the product range, functionality, and directions of the products – that is not to say ESRI can’t do better – less bugs would be nice. However, the same could be said for Oracle – Oracle’s bug list is truly scary when you take a close look at the data corruption possibilities in past releases- and it doesn’t look to get better with current releases.
With respect to Manifold, it is my understanding, that bang for bucks, Manifold is a good product. It allows many people to get into the GIS game, at low cost, for a lot of functionality. Any GIS professional should be happy that people are using GIS, to meet a business requirement, – no matter what the flavour it is.
Bang for bucks is an important requirement for many organisations, and should not be dismissed and manifold appears to do well in this area.
Product range, integration of products, a high level of support, a large user community, high quality training courses, ready access to trained professionals, or consultants is also a consideration one must take into account – and one where I believe ESRI does well – but there is a cost.
Here is some food for thought. I suspect most of the users on this blog are from the USA. - Cost of ArcView in the USA US$1500. - Cost of ArcView in Australia US$3872
Cost of maintenance in Austalia : Double that of the USA.
Cost of doing business with ESRI Australia – DOUBLE the cost of the USA.
If you are in the USA, take a look at your current ESRI software budget, double it, and then ask youself the bang for bucks question again – tempting.
At the end of the day, you need to meet your business requirements, and there is a cost of doing business. You just need to figure out for yourself what these factors are, commit and move forward to get the job done – no matter what flavour of software you use.
I think the Manifold people should be thankful to James. Before he started mentioning Manifold, I never heard of it (and I do think I’m fairly well-informed about the whole GIS industry). As a famous entrepreneur once said: “Bad publicity is better than no publicity”. I guess you can say that Manifold is the Paris Hilton of GIS software
Oh sure. It gets so darn lonely on georeference.org, that’s why I hang out here.
Does Paris look worse than a gimp?
I’m an ArcGIS user at the day job, and a Manifold user when I’m on my own time. For the most part I like using both programs. Manifold is a capable GIS, but it is a very different approach. The support community is helpful which is good because the documentation leaves much to be desired. All the information is there, but poorly edited and interspersed with the fanaticism similar to that expressed above. In my experience (~1.5 years) the difficulties with Manifold lie with limited cartographic tools and a very slow responding 3-D application. I think Manifold functions better than GIMP (under windows anyway), but I think the alleged analogy is valid.
‘documentation leaves much to be desired. All the information is there, but poorly edited’
This surprises me as I find the Help to be very well written, can you give us examples?
That is classic. Chris you could just quote that “statement” without response and it speaks for itself. (like all the good bots here)
BTW, if you don’t want to join us, send your regurgitations to canit@suckit.ass
If you do, sales@manifold.net is a good way to get what you want.
I heard that not only is David Maguire leaving ESRI, but he is going to work for Manifold – it appears he was so impressed by the massive user base, and all the people talking on the FreeJamesFromESRI blog.
I mean its just out of control all the Manifold users there are out there. Even here it is so obvious how many Manifold users there are – why, there are probably 5 or 6 who keep this thread alive. And, some may even be aliases so maybe 3 or 4 – but, thats more Manifold users than I have ever seen before. Yeah, they are just way bigger than ESRI.
I don’t even know if this Mike Summer guy is a real name or not – probably not. He’s probably Dimitri or Chris C. All these Manifold guys are nothing but a bunch of shoe salesmen, who don’t know anything about GIS – they are just trying to fleece the GIS community.
For once I agree with that psychotic mutant Lefty: mrcc has a chemical imbalance.
Actually I’m a product of your imagination.
What do you mean by fleece?
What do you mean by fleece?
buying a product that nobody uses, and probably doesn’t work anyway. ESRI is the gold standard, and the one that gets the job done, and serves virtually every GIS application in the world.
More people have been saved by ESRI software than any other product. Manifold is only used by, at most, a few hundred people. James has already put this too bed, but the Manifold nuts won’t let it rest.
So, are you Dimitri or Chris C in disguise?
OK Summer – answer this. Who uses Manifold?
Is there a major private sector player using Manifold? Name one!
Is there a government agency using Manifold? Name one!
Is there any respectable academic using Manifold? Name one!
I can give answers to the above questions for ESRI, MapInfo, Intergraph, AutoDesk, or Open Source.
Who is using the product out there?
Like I said, it’s solipsism. You’ll wake up soon.
If you want to survey the users of Manifold, check out the discussions on Georeference: http://forum.manifold.net/Site/
A few hundred people have independently started threads on Georeference in the last 3 months alone. You can draw your own conclusions, given that not everyone who uses software joins discussions online, let alone starts a new thread.
BTW, I’ve got a few hydras, but that would be impressive.
‘OK Summer – answer this. Who uses Manifold?’
My name is Sumner yo yo.
If I could sustain the arguments of Dimitri and Chris and mr.cc as well as my own sloppy banter I’d be a total master. I guess I should be flattered.
don’t flatter yourself.
Since you aren’t doing any real GIS work with a product like Manifold, you’d have lots of time on your hands to sustain those arguments.
Call me when you get a user base
Oh great, I finally got a lead for some real work beyond pumping gas.
jojo – you really are quite an ignorant troll aren’t you?
If you could even do the smallest bit of research into Manifold or even did a search on mdsumner on Georeference, you would know what you are saying is completely false and insulting.
Chris – “poorly edited” may have been a bit strong (although nobody seems to be pulling any punches around here). My main problem with the documentation is that the topics, while complete, tend to be many screens long, so I find myself having to sift through several screens of material to find the sentence that will allow me to complete my task. As I mentioned above Manifold is very different from other GIS software, so even with years of experience with ESRI, GRASS, PostGIS, Idrisi, etc. the Manifold help files are essential to get work done. It may just be personal preference, but I wish the topics were shorter with links to more detailed information.
Mike – I didn’t think I was bashing Manifold. I haven’t come across a GIS package yet that that didn’t have weaknesses. I feel Manifold is a competent GIS and the user community provides excellent support. You have helped me out when I have posted questions on Georeference.
“BTW, if you don’t want to join us, send your regurgitations to…..” I didn’t realize I was paying dues when I bought Manifold. To me a GIS is a tool to get my work done. Manifold is a decent one as is ArcGIS and several others, but I don’t have an emotional commitment to any of them. When I buy a Craftsman hammer, I don’t feel that I am obligated to defend Sears against the heathens from Stanley.
I have recommended Manifold to my colleagues and students, but I always tell them to look past the testimonials and “uniquely” designed website and read a significant chunk of the documentation before they buy the package to get a feel for the different approach to GIS that Manifold takes.
Thanks for the clarification Richard, when it comes to searching the Help I find opening the CHM version, via the start menu > All programs > Manifold, easier to navigate with a search function to find words in a single Help topic .
Sorry Richard, I read that at the wrong end of the day and really wasn’t looking carefully enough. I was reacting without reading.
On that topic, my main interest in lurking here is to counter (albeit badly) the misconceptions* that are bandied about. The sensible comments made by many Manifold users here are probably doing a far better job than I can at that.
I really don’t want people like jojo to buy Manifold – but I rail when complete fictions are bandied about, and I’m pretty bad-tempered.
Chris C calls me a troll, and Mike Summer says he wishes I don’t buy the product – that says alot.
you guys only know how to make personal attacks. Why don’t you stick to the technical issues and keep the personal stuff out.
I was going to suggest the same.
“I don’t even know if this Mike Summer guy is a real name or not – probably not. He’s probably Dimitri or Chris C. All these Manifold guys are nothing but a bunch of shoe salesmen, who don’t know anything about GIS – they are just trying to fleece the GIS community. “
“Manifold is only used by, at most, a few hundred people. James has already put this too bed, but the Manifold nuts won’t let it rest.”
“Since you aren’t doing any real GIS work with a product like Manifold, you’d have lots of time on your hands to sustain those arguments.”
I guess I’ve got a lot to learn about “technical issues”.
and your point is?
over your head obviously.
Don’t be too hard on jojo. Jojo is a kid clown running around with a lion trying to figure out life.
KoS
I thought this was interesting. Received this email today. They are a private company and can withhold the info, but I think it’s sorta shooting yourself in the foot. Or limiting the opportunties to expose others to the product.
“Attention Manifold Systems users,
We regret to inform you that Data Management Support (DMS) will no longer be able to freely distribute Manifold.Net GIS software within Indiana University. Manifold.Net Ltd. has declined the continuation of Indiana University’s Academic Site License due to a ruling by the Indiana Department of Revenue that would require Manifold.Net Ltd. to file annual tax returns in Indiana in order to donate use of their software to Indiana University. DMS learned of this situation while reapplying to Manifold.Net Ltd. for our current academic license in order to upgrade to the latest version.
To view Manifold’s guidelines for Academic licenses, please see http://www.manifold.net/shop/licensing.html.
If you have ever downloaded Manifold Systems software from IUware Online or received a serial number for Manifold Systems from a UITS GIS Specialist, we must ask you to please discontinue your use of the software immediately. Please uninstall the Manifold Systems application from your computer and delete the setup files. This request applies to all students, faculty and staff at Indiana University on all campuses - including both IU-owned computers and personal computers. This also applies to all versions of Manifold Systems software. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause you.
If you are interested in purchasing Manifold Systems for your own use, please see the Manifold Online Store at http://www.manifold.net/online_store.html
If you would like to learn about other free GIS software, please see https://kb.iu.edu/data/arml.html.“
KoS
OMGWTFBBQ: manifold.net has suddenly disappeared. Go bloggers!
Go Dept of Revenue!! More like it.
Sad to see the ruling the Dept made. And the following decision by Manifold. I totally understand why Manifold declined to submit the info.
Whether or not ones likes the software. I don’t like idea of limiting the choices or options offered to the students. Which I would argue it is the fault of the Dept. Who really cares how much a company is making, they were offering free software. And far as I can tell, was a one-way offering too. A win win for the university and the students, or was one at least.
KoS
I would like to know more about it. Got any further information? I couldn’t find anything by searching.
Nope, I guess I could have picked up the phone or email a few people to have found out more.
Just too darn lazy and uninterested atm.
KoS
Sounds like ESRI has now found their strategy for beating Manifold. Get the government to intervene.
Keep an eye out on other academic institutions and see if they start folding one-by-one
I can haz Manifold 8 !!
Yeah, Baby!!!
Forget it Lefty, ESRI is through! See you through my rear view mirror in the dust-heap of GIS
What do I care if ESRI is dead or not? Manifold actually finally addressed the biggest issue I had with it in supporting ArcSDE.
Maybe someone can post some of the improvements to cartography and then I might take manifold seriously. If the cartography is still weak, it makes it very hard to change IMO.
Cartography sadly wasnt their focus for this release. So dont expect any major changes there (yet !!)
The past 5 years I have been using ESRI products throughout my academic studies. I like what ESRI has to offer, but due to its high costs, there is no way I can afford ArcInfo and its commonly used extensions, yet alone their server products. Therefore, I’m considering Manifold 8.0 Enterprise x64 on my Widows server, and Manifold 8.0 Professional Geocoding (along with their extensions) on my workstation.
My question is, what would I loose, or gain, by moving over to Manifold as my primary database management and cartography tool? Will I be able to do just about everything in Manifold as I do in ArcMap 9.2?
In addition, I have collected enormous amounts of data over the years using ArcMap. Will I be able to use that data in Manifold?
If these questions are incorrectly posted for this blog, I apologize.
Cartography is going to be your problem. Manifold just isn’t advanced as ArcGIS. Depending on how important this is, it limit your ability to work. On the data side, Manifold can read anything that ArcGIS can (and more).
That’s what I was afraid of, however, it is good news for I am very much accustomed to ArcGIS and would hate to give it up. As for the data, couldn’t be happier! Glad to know I could still use it.
What’s your opinion on using Manifold Enterprise as server opposed to ESRI’s servers? It does seem to offer an included IMS, which is nice. I plan to use either PostgreSQL or SQL Server 2008. Would geography still find a way to be an issue? And yes, I will retrain use of ArcGIS on my workstation.
Actually, unless you are planning on using Manifold (working via the GUI interface) on your server, you can use a runtime license of Manifold to serve your IMS sites. If you aren’t going to be serving IMS sites on your server, you don’t need to install any version of Manifold on it. With an Enterprise license of Manifold on your workstation, you’ll have everything you need to connect to, and create/manage data in your database of choice (no middleware like SDE required).
You might want to consider using PostGIS for your DBMS. You can use Manifold to create/edit data using PostGIS native geometry, and still be able to view the data with ArcGIS using ZigGIS (possibly edit it too when ZigGIS 2 comes out). You can do almost everything using Manifold that you can do using ArcGIS. Some things will be easier, some will be about the same, and some will require a little more work. The training videos available at http://www.gisadvisor.com/ will help to get you up and running on Manifold very quickly.
If you can afford it, the Universal version of Manifold would be your best choice for your workstation. The business tools and surface tools extensions can come in very handy at times.
CAN SOMEONE GIVE ME A MANIFOLD CD KEY, PLEASE FOR MANIFOLD 6
I don’t think you can has a Manifold 6 key. You has to purchase a Manifold 8 key.
Quit doing my work.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y34/adeptusmoronicus/thread_necromancer.png
Sorry Necromancer, but I’m a born smartass and some people are just begging for it.
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