Monday Open Thread

April 2nd, 2007 · 35 Comments · GIS

We haven’t had one of these in quite some time and a couple have emailed me asking if I could do another one.

Knock yourselves out guys.

Tags:

35 responses so far ↓

1 Lefty // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:10 am

Oh, the Manifold guys need somewhere to spout off their second rate, children’s software, GIS product? Can’t wait to see what they complain about now.

We all know ESRI is done for and Manifold will sit hand in hand with Microsoft at the top of GIS for decades to come.
2 Doug // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:42 am

RIP MapInfo.
3 Tom Savage // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:43 am

Acording to ESRI:
ArcGIS 9.2 service pack 2 is planned to be available for download in mid April, 2007.

Will 9.2 SP2 support Windows Vista?
4 Gretch // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:43 am

I agree, what is with the Manifold folks resurrecting an old thread? Seems weird to me…

http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2006/09/19/esri-multi-core-and-64-bit-processors/#comment-12669
5 James Fee // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:45 am

@ Tom

I don’t recall what was said at the Dev Summit and I sure didn’t write it down. There is a technical article about it though and it says SP2 though the current SP2 page says nothing about it.
6 Manifold is best // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:54 am

My favorite thing about Manifold is that their website still uses Frames after all these years. Glad to see some companies can still keep their feet well planted in 1996.
7 EJ // Apr 2, 2007 at 10:19 am

When will ESRI decide to update their current icon pack? So many other applications offer nice looking 256×256 icons if not SVG versions. The blocky 64×64 ArcMap icon is really starting to make me sad.
8 Ted Chapin // Apr 2, 2007 at 12:15 pm

@Tom

My notes from the Dev Summit say Vista Support is planned for 9.3.
9 -Rob // Apr 2, 2007 at 12:20 pm

I’m kind of looking forward to the day when James works for Manifold as an evangelist!
10 Matt // Apr 2, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Open thread leaves any question up for grabs…right? I’ll drop a non-controversial one. I’ve heard in the past that Google has semi-trailer sized server farm “pods” distributed around the U.S. (or is that a tin-foil hat rumor?). My question is…how does Microsoft serve up all of the Pictometry data so quickly via Local.Live? They stated that their last update was 3.8 TB, which granted, you can buy a 1 TB Western Digital drive at Best Buy, but to serve up all the rest of the world’s data at such high availability…it boggles my mind how they must accomplish this task.

Along these same lines, does anyone know how MS is obtaining elevation model data for use in Virtual Earth? Old USGS DEMs? LIDAR or NASA based info?

Take care,
-Matt
11 J // Apr 2, 2007 at 1:27 pm

SP2 will not support Windows Vista.

Windows Vista support for ArcGIS Desktop will be available in SP3 which is coming around in a few more months.

J
12 mfd // Apr 2, 2007 at 1:38 pm

second rate, children’s software

yeah, I guess grown up software still waits to be Vista compatible, doesn’t takes advantage of dual core and 64-bit, or spatial SQL, charges $10,000 for the product, and creates in IMS application that is divorced from the main product so you can’t reuse any of your code.

Yep, that sounds like a much better option. Where do I buy it Lefty?

My favorite thing about Manifold is that their website still uses Frames after all these years

my favorite thing about Manifold is they don’t plow their money into their website or other marketing, but keep adding new features with each release. But, I guess grown up software spends the users’ hard earned money on marketing. Sure, I’d be happy with that too.
13 Lefty // Apr 2, 2007 at 1:48 pm

“yeah, I guess grown up software still waits to be Vista compatible

If you are dumb enough to be running Vista before the first SP, then you are dumb enough to be running Manifold. Got that…

doesn’t takes advantage of dual core and 64-bit

Issue for Servers, not desktop

spatial SQL

You are wrong there

charges $10,000 for the product

Do some research….

and creates in IMS application that is divorced from the main product so you can’t reuse any of your code. “

In correct, ArcObjects is ArcObjects…

my favorite thing about Manifold is they don’t plow their money into their website or other marketing, but keep adding new features with each release.

New features? It looks and runs like a VB5 application.

But, I guess grown up software spends the users’ hard earned money on marketing.

Oh like support sites that have a real URL instead of an IP address? What is this the 80’s?

Sure, I’d be happy with that too.

Since you are clearly uninformed about ArcGIS, Manifold and their backward product seems right up your alley.
14 J // Apr 2, 2007 at 1:58 pm

“If you are dumb enough to be running Vista before the first SP, then you are dumb enough to be running Manifold. Got that…”

Ha yea right! I’m running Windows Vista and am running ArcGIS Desktop 9.2 including ArcGIS Server 9.2 really well. I have had problems but I have fixed all of them.

It’s if you want to or not. No one is stopping you.
15 mfd // Apr 2, 2007 at 4:37 pm

Issue for Servers, not desktop

thats because most of the crap software you use can’t take advantage of it. Manifold can.

You are wrong there

no I’m not. ArcGIS does not include spatial SQL. Period. Now, SDE has some of those capabilities, but until you use a desktopo application like Manifold with spatial SQL, you will never understand what I’m talking about.
16 mfd // Apr 2, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Do some research….

afraid I have. I’m not looking at ArcGIS ArcView. I’m talking ArcGIS with 3D analyst, spatial analyst, etc. Also, full topological editing. Yep, you are going to get close to $10K. And, I haven’t even included ArcIMS. Thats another $10K. So, maybe you should start doing your research…

In correct, ArcObjects is ArcObjects…

ArcIMS is certainly not integrated into the desktop GIS the way Manifold IMS is. And again, since you’ve never used Manifold, you have no idea of how good of an architecture this is. It would be impossible to explain it to an ESRI apologist like you.

New features? It looks and runs like a VB5 application.

WTFBBQ. Man, where are you coming from. the entire thing is written in C++ and totally .NET integrated. And, it has the Designed for XP status. Has ESRI achieved that? Please, don’t get me started on ArcToolbox - HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!

Oh like support sites that have a real URL instead of an IP address? What is this the 80’s?

no, its a place where grownups go to get answers from really technical people. Many Manifolders would defend the forum up-and-down as a great place to learn and get support.

you crack me up. Because its a URL you dismiss it. Obviously, you are more enamored with marketing hype, than good old fashioned information. You like those nice shiney boxes, don’t you lefty. LOL!!

Since you are clearly uninformed about ArcGIS, Manifold and their backward product seems right up your alley

I’ve used ArcView/ArcGIS for 10 years. How long have you used Manifold. C’mon, be honest. I bet you’ve never used it. In fact I bet you don’t even use ArcGIS, you probably just look at the shiney box all day - HA, HA, HA!!!
17 Lefty // Apr 2, 2007 at 9:23 pm

thats because most of the crap software you use can’t take advantage of it. Manifold can.

Manifold can’t hold ESRI’s jockstrap in the server market so don’t even kid yourself there.

no I’m not. ArcGIS does not include spatial SQL. Period. Now, SDE has some of those capabilities, but until you use a desktopo application like Manifold with spatial SQL, you will never understand what I’m talking about.

Are you kidding me? I use Oracle Spatial and that is a real spatial SQL, not the joke that Manifold has.

afraid I have. I’m not looking at ArcGIS ArcView. I’m talking ArcGIS with 3D analyst, spatial analyst, etc. Also, full topological editing. Yep, you are going to get close to $10K. And, I haven’t even included ArcIMS. Thats another $10K. So, maybe you should start doing your research…

Sure you can spend that much with ESRI, but you get so much more. Spending 10k will get you much further than Manifold can even dream of. A chevette like Manifold is cheaper and can get you from point a to point b like any car can, I won’t argue with that.

WTFBBQ. Man, where are you coming from. the entire thing is written in C++ and totally .NET integrated. And, it has the Designed for XP status. Has ESRI achieved that? Please, don’t get me started on ArcToolbox - HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!

Designed for XP? Are you kidding me? It isn’t even designed for Windows 3.11. ArcGIS looks and works like a MS Office application. Manifold looks and works like some weird VB5 app. End of story

I’ve used ArcView/ArcGIS for 10 years. How long have you used Manifold. C’mon, be honest. I bet you’ve never used it. In fact I bet you don’t even use ArcGIS, you probably just look at the shiney box all day - HA, HA, HA!!!

Right, if you want to debate about the merits of the software I’m all ready for it, but if you resort to these childish actions, no one will take you seriously.
18 -Rob // Apr 3, 2007 at 5:09 am

“If you are dumb enough to be running Vista before the first SP, then you are dumb enough to be running Manifold. Got that…”

I agree with J. I’ve been running Vista 64 since December. Very stable system and runs extremely well with my new Conroe chip. I’ve also had no problems running ArcMap.
19 -Rob // Apr 3, 2007 at 5:11 am

One more interesting note about Manifold to people who purchase on-line. The last time I checked, the site didn’t have a secure order form. Very poor form for a modern web application and I don’t recommend anyone use this system for an 0n-line purpose. Dimitri and Manifold should spend some money and get a web company to update the site ASAP.
20 al // Apr 3, 2007 at 5:55 am

Are you kidding me? I use Oracle Spatial and that is a real spatial SQL, not the joke that Manifold has.

Lefty,

I use both, and I have to say (IMHO) honestly that Manifold’s is better - quite a bit better. That is, from an ease of use standpoint, and even functional standpoint. Also, everyone I know that has used both have said the same thing.

Now, that being said - yes, Lefty, you are correct about the server market. While Manifold has better spatial SQL, there is no way in hell you will do spatial SQL on a 10 million record database in Manifold. Oracle makes light work of this.

So, in this case, for smaller dataset (hundreds of thousands), Manifold (IMHO) is really better with spatial SQL. But, to have a real grown-up enterprise application, Manifold won’t cut it, and Oracle Spatial and SDE are the better way to go.

Now, after saying all that, one of the things I do is use ADO to issue Oracle Spatial commands from Manifold. Then, I get the data back from Oracle in a smaller form and work with it in Manifold. But, that is more of a kludge than anything else.

Lefty, I respect your technical abilities, so I don’t want to start a flame war. But, I do have some comments on many of your points that I’d be happy to share in a civil way if you would like. I think you have an incorrect view of Manifold’s capabilities, but then again, I think mfd does also.

It is not the panacea of all GIS, but it is rather cool, and does do quite abit. Let me know if you want me to keep this discussion going.

Cheers,

al
21 Chris C. // Apr 3, 2007 at 7:24 am

@ Rob

From the ever informative Manifold website:

“Why does my browser not show an SSL link to the Online Store? Manifold.net does not use SSL encryption on the Online Store. This provides much faster connections for customers and avoids the security risk of third parties possessing certificates as well as the technical unreliability of running independent certificate servers. As a practical matter, your transaction is safe because your connection to the Online Store is broken up into many small packets that are mixed with trillions of other packets on the web. Although it is theoretically possible for someone inside an ISP with a packet sniffer to reassemble those packets, never in the history of millions of frauds on Internet has even a single credit card number been stolen by that means. Certificate companies like to scare consumers who are unfamiliar with the technical structure of Internet as a means of selling their services, but as a practical matter seeing an SSL connection icon does nothing for your security. It’s much more important to keep customer databases encrypted and secured against Internet access (which Manifold does).”
22 -Rob // Apr 3, 2007 at 7:27 am

@Chris

I love it! This is just like the Manifold documentation.
23 Chris C. // Apr 3, 2007 at 7:40 am

I was using my serious voice, not my sarcastic one :),

Here’s some more information to digest.
24 Whitey // Apr 3, 2007 at 8:53 am

@ Chris C.

I had to see this for myself.
http://www.manifold.net/shop/privacy_faq.html

Yep. I guess in manifold world, it is still 1996. What’s really unbelievable about this isn’t that they don’t use SSL to do the transactions. What blows me away is they feel it’s OK and offer a psuedo-technical explination. “…never in the history of millions of frauds on Internet has even a single credit card number been stolen by that means.” HA HA HA HA…..

I have to add, that at one point in time I was curious about manifold and would be willing to try it out (if they offered a trial). But if you can rationalize (or don’t understand) why not using SSL is OK for transactions, then I have no confidence in this companies ability to do anything. I seen all I need to about manifold now.
25 Doug // Apr 3, 2007 at 9:37 am

So that Florida basketball team…
26 Chad // Apr 3, 2007 at 9:39 am

Florida has a basketball team? o.O
27 whowho // Apr 11, 2007 at 9:43 am

James,

Dimitri is now saying that the entire legacy GIS market doesn’t even make up 5% of Manifold’s market. I think we should throw some numbers at him.

Do you have any idea how many ArcView, ArcGIS users there are out there? My guess is it has to be close to 1 million. I seriously doubt that Manifold has sold 20 million copies of their kiddie GIS.
28 Chris C. // Apr 11, 2007 at 10:14 am

@whowho

I think you should reread the comment he’s talking about Manifold’s market not the whole of the legacy GIS market. The legacy market only accounts for 5% of Manifold sales.
29 -Rob // Apr 11, 2007 at 10:29 am

Can someone post a link where Dimiti makes the statements?
30 Chris C. // Apr 11, 2007 at 11:43 am

It’s on the Georeference forum - wishlist for surfaces
31 whowho // Apr 11, 2007 at 12:57 pm

@Chris C:

please read the context:
I wouldn’t be surprised if the entire legacy GIS market for *all* uses, as commonly understood, is less than 5% of Manifold’s market. It is not that Manifold is that big, by the way, it is that legacy GIS is that incredibly small compared to mainstream markets.

he is saying that the legacy market as a whole is small. He is comparing it to their own market. So, I think he is implying that they are just so much bigger than the legacy market.
32 Chris // Apr 11, 2007 at 5:31 pm

@whowho

I think you’re the one doing all the implying
33 MG // May 2, 2007 at 6:32 pm

Guys, guys…. where are all these hostilities coming from?
34 Dude // May 3, 2007 at 9:24 am

@MG

Obviously from Dimitri & his goons!
35 KoS // May 3, 2007 at 10:01 am

Wait, I thought I was the only one with anger management issues…….lol

KoS