Open Thread

January 2nd, 2007 · 56 Comments · GIS

Boy, after almost two weeks of vacation I’m exhausted and ready to go back to work. OK, maybe not.

Might be a good time for an open thread. Mark Fennell sent me a link to a project he’s working on called Wings. Simply put, it is a Flash game built on Google Maps imagery. You are an eagle, soaring over the world. You can also use lat/longs to pick any area you wish by using the following URL:

http://www.markfennell.com/flash/wings/index.php?
latitude=33.4253&longitude=-111.9352&zoomlevel=0

Oh and how about Boise State? My wife is still in shock (she’s a Sooner). I couldn’t be happier as I love to see West Coast teams beat up on the eastern teams.

Tags:

56 responses so far ↓

1 joyrider // Jan 2, 2007 at 9:50 am

another open thread…great! I cant wait to hear all the Manifold users start telling us how good their software is, and how bad ESRI is.

Just for fun, how ’bout getting Manifold users to try and list 500 organizations using Manifold. I would be that it cannot be done.
2 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 9:56 am

Can somebody (perhaps an anonymous reseller) please post some ESRI prices so that we have them listed once and for all in a convenient location:

ArcGIS Desktop (ArcView):
Spatial Analyst:
3D Analyst:
ArcGIS (full bundle):
ArcIMS:
ArcServer:
3 -Rob // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:11 am

When did Oklahoma become an eastern team? Yikes. Geography aside, that was one of the best football games I’ve ever watched. Great Game.
4 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:14 am

If it isn’t Pac-10, Mountain West or WAC, it’s east coast.
5 Dave // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:29 am

@ESRIPricer

They don’t post prices. Talk to your rep, and they’ll give you “list” prices, which you can then negotiate a bit on. The licensing is quite complex (primary & secondary licenses, maintenance, etc etc), so it’s pretty hard to grok, let alone actually list out. I’d like to see them move to a simpler licensing model, but I’m not holding my breath on that.

Dave
6 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:37 am

Dave,

that was sort of the point of the posting. I am clueless as to the prices that people do/can pay. Just like with buying a car, it used to be really difficult, because you had no real idea of the prices when you walked into a dealer. Now, with things like carsdirect.com, you can get list, retail, invoice, etc. It helps everyone to negotiate better.

So, I want better ammunition to negotiate the price on. If there are some resellers out there, it would be great if they posted something.
7 -Rob // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:40 am

ESRIpricer - contact Rockware (www.rockware.com) or MapMart(www.mapmart.com) .

they had the best prices when I was purchasing the products.
8 Chad // Jan 2, 2007 at 11:48 am

I thought the prices were something like this:

ArcGIS Desktop (ArcView): ARM
Spatial Analyst: LEG
3D Analyst: ARM & LEG
ArcGIS (full bundle): FIRST BORN
ArcIMS: ALL KIDS
ArcServer: IF YOU HAVE TO ASK, YOU CAN’T AFFORD

I could be off a little. ;~)
9 Rick Miller // Jan 2, 2007 at 12:01 pm

James: No disrepect here, but Oklahoma east coast? Maybe NOAA considers OK a coastal state due to navigable Arkansas River and Port of Tulsa, but then again that’s NOAA…they also consider Lake Champlain a “great lake”!
10 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 12:04 pm

well, if someone has recently purchased ESRI software, how about just posting the costs. Is it that secretive?
11 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 12:06 pm

Rick - Growing up on the coast of California I used to wonder how anyone could live east of I-5. Of course I now live east of I-5, but we called those living in Palm Springs “coasters” because they lived “near” the east coast.

Its an Orange County thing I guess.
12 Jack Dangermond // Jan 2, 2007 at 12:27 pm

Orbit GIS is the best GIS out there. I’ll bet my reputation on it.
13 GEAUX TIGERS // Jan 2, 2007 at 1:40 pm

The Fighting Irish are about to become the Slapped-Around-And-Sent-Home-Crying Irish.
14 Deadplanet // Jan 2, 2007 at 1:46 pm

Last I heard, ArcView 9.2 sells for ~$1500. Not sure of the others…
15 dan stark // Jan 2, 2007 at 2:34 pm

I remember all of the bumper stickers in OB, MB and PB in San Diego that said “There is No Life East of I-5″. I moved out West 20 years ago and from Portland to San Diego have rarely lived more than a couple of miles from an on-ramp!
16 Dan // Jan 2, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Not coming into the game as either a Boise State or Oklahoma fan, I found myself rooting for the underdog Broncos against the big bad Sooners. It was a delight to see them execute the trick plays to perfection at the end.
17 Bill Buckner // Jan 2, 2007 at 2:37 pm

What about the SWAC?
18 Tired of it // Jan 2, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Here are some prices and my current gripe:

ArcEditor 9.2: $7000

Can I read & write OGC WKB format with it? No. Can Manifold? Yes.

What does it take to get that $7000 piece of software from an OGC member that who is purported to be “committed to standards” to read & write WKB?

ArcGIS Server (at SDE equivalent level): $10,000

My final gripe, it sure seems like ESRI went out of their way to prohibit storing geometries as WKB in the new Personal ArcSDE (which is something fully possible in regular ArcSDE).
19 Fight On TROJANS // Jan 2, 2007 at 3:53 pm

nuff said
20 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:06 pm

@tired of it:

if ArcEditor is $7,000 does that include Spatial Analyst, 3D Analyst, and ArcScene? Or, is that more?
21 Tired of it // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:11 pm

@ESRIpricer

Are you kidding me? This is ESRI we’re talking about here. $7000 gets you ArcEditor and nothing else (though I have hear others, including James, mention other prices like $6000 or $6500–negotiation maybe?)

The prices of extensions are listed on their site; go to the extension’s page, click “How to buy” on the left and the price will be in the right margin of the following page.
22 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:20 pm

You’ll want to contact your rep. ESRI lists some “off the street” prices on their store page, but generally you pay less than that price.

I’ll say this, if you pay $7k for ArcEditor, I’d talk to your sales rep. That prices seems a little high to me.
23 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:28 pm

So in other words, the model is: we will post our prices high, and if someone is an idiot we’ll take their money for that price. But, if you ask, we’ll give you a different price.

Sound like a car dealership. Very unprofessional if you ask me. Its as though they are trying to take advantage of some people.
24 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:33 pm

Actually that isn’t a correct analogy. Those prices on the website are accurate (though some will get discounts).

The more you buy, the better discount you get. Autodesk does it the same way. Heck even Microsoft. When I saw the price our company pays for Office per seat, I was surprised given what the retail price is (or even discounted on the internet).

Large orders get discounts, it is just the nature of the business. If you called your local ESRI rep (which you are encouraged to do by ESRI) they’ll get you the best price you can get given your organization type and number of seats needed.
25 Shane // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:40 pm

“If it isn’t Pac-10, Mountain West or WAC, it’s east coast”

Louisiana Tech (WAC) and TCU (MW) are both just as east as OK or more… I thought Idaho was landlocked too, hence no ‘coast’.

Better watch out, you might end up like Tupac starting up an east/west coast feud!
26 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:46 pm

@tired of it:

so, is this the more realistic thing:

ArcEditor: $7,000
Spatial Analyst: $2,500
3D Analyst: $2,500

So, to get a complete GIS package (without routing or geostatistics) is around $12,000. Then, something like ArcIMS is around $8,000, right?

Based on these prices, I don’t have to buy ArcView, do I? That is, does ArcEditor give me all the thematic mapping and query capabilities. Or, do I actually have to buy ArcView too?
27 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:48 pm

@James:

sure, I can understand a volume discount. That makes sense. But, there are usually formulas for that (i.e. 25% off copies 2-6). But, it looks like if ESRI just set a standard price, and volume price, they could let their entire sales staff go for the most part.

I don’t like this “here is a price, but its not really the price, wink, wink”.
28 i smell a troll // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:49 pm

/me thinks ESRIpricer is a troll. Don’t fall for the bait.
29 dan stark // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:53 pm

http://esri.com/software/arcgis/arceditor/index.html

your price is high - call a rep to get realistic
30 lefty // Jan 2, 2007 at 4:55 pm

Dude are you for real?

I’m not sure where you are going with your questions.

1. ArcView - $1,200
2. ArcEditor - $5,500
3. Extensions - $2,000 (Spatial, 3D, etc)
4. ArcIMS - $7,000

Honestly I agree, I think you are trolling, but at the risk of furthering your enjoyment, here is what my organization pays. $12,000 is laughable and makes me think you are trolling.
31 Chad // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:01 pm

Probably a closet Manifold user ;~)
32 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:02 pm

sure, I can understand a volume discount. That makes sense. But, there are usually formulas for that (i.e. 25% off copies 2-6). But, it looks like if ESRI just set a standard price, and volume price, they could let their entire sales staff go for the most part.

Don’t take this the wrong way because I don’t mean any disrespect, but how old are you? I’m asking because if you’ve worked in the commercial world you’d be very familiar with this sales method.

I don’t like this “here is a price, but its not really the price, wink, wink”.

Actually that is the real price. ESRI Business Partners get a discount as well as other organizations. There is not “bargaining” here.
33 Canuck // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:26 pm

We just bought a copy of Publisher concurrent - I went through Telesales, and the price was $2500. Usually my rep can get me about 10% off “list”. Still not as good as some resellers though. I have always found extensions to be $2500.
34 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:30 pm

@lefty,

those are better. Thanks. That is honestly what I was looking for, some actual prices from a real user. Now, you made it sound like I was way off base, but your configuration of ArcView, ArcEditor, 2 extensions is $10,700. So, I wasn’t too far off. Also, I was only $1,000 more on the ArcIMS.

And yes, in some ways it was trolling, but not for the reasons you think (i.e. Manifold). It was in no way to disrespect you and your purchases. It was more due to the fact that I was looking to get some prices for ESRI because I’m often in discussions with people about it. And, after doing an extensive Google search, I could never find a price.

I also didn’t want to call an ESRI rep because I am generally opposed to that. I think its tacky that they sell a product but wont tell you how much it costs. And, I don’t want to then be in a relationship with the vendor, and have him get nosey like you, wondering if I’m a troll

Another reason was so that once and for all, there is a place where the price of the software is listed. It should not be a secret. Thanks to some of the participation here, it no longer is. That is a great thing.

I would be interested in knowing if others are getting a better deal from ESRI.
35 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:48 pm

To all:

sorry if I insulted anyone with my questions, I feel bad about that. Alot of people were saying that I was being a troll. I didn’t mean to do that, and I apologize to anyone who took offense.
36 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 5:56 pm

I’m asking because if you’ve worked in the commercial world you’d be very familiar with this sales method.

Actually, I’ve been in the commercial world for a long time, developing optimization software. And, to let you in on a dirty little secret, we sell our stuff for what we can get! So, I can see right through those tactics. Basically, we have a product, and we don’t publish a price. Then, we size up a potential client and then come up with our price.

Now, in our case, the software does require some follow-up support, so we can always say that its not “one price fits all”, as there are some services.

But, ESRI software is COTS, and should be at a non-secret price. I would challenge you James to find me a site that lists the prices (not for the extensions, though, I did not know about those). Why can’t ESRI publish the price for ArcIMS, ArcEditor, etc., etc.

Now, I think you are a reseller (not totally sure), and for that reason, I think you are right to say you get a better price. Thats only fair, as you are selling the software, and possibly some services. Before getting into the software market, I was in the office supply market (over 20 years ago!). And, we got a 40% discount so that we could then sell the stuff at the retail price (or maybe better if we were in a competitive situation). But, thats different than the vendor who sells their own software.
37 anon // Jan 2, 2007 at 6:23 pm

“Actually, I’ve been in the commercial world for a long time, developing optimization software.”
I call BS because there isn’t anything out of the ordinary with ESRI’s sales practices. From Oracle to Microsoft, from Adobe to Autodesk, from ESRI to Symantec, they all handle sales this way. I’m no sure what rock you crawled out from under but you are barking up the wrong tree here.
38 tired of it // Jan 2, 2007 at 6:46 pm

I’ll be talking to my rep tomorrow as $7000 is what she quoted me. I don’t suppose the people saying they got it for less might have a volume discount? We already have a couple licenses for ArcView, one for ArcEditor and a couple extensions (so we’re not a “new” customer but not exactly volume sales either) and she just quoted $7000 last week.
39 ESRIpricer // Jan 2, 2007 at 7:42 pm

I call BS because there isn’t anything out of the ordinary with ESRI’s sales practices….I’m no sure what rock you crawled out from under but you are barking up the wrong tree here.

so I’m a troll who crawled out from under a rock.

Nice friendly community you have here James. I’ll be sure to never come back…
40 amateur // Jan 2, 2007 at 7:53 pm

I’m sure I’ll come across here as pretty ignorant re GIS, but that’s only because I am.

I do a little ecological type contracting now and then, and so need to view satellite imagery, georeference aerial photos, make shapefiles, use other people’s data, etc. I started out with Arcview 3.2, but since I was learning on my own and just wanted to use it without a steep learning curve, I got pretty frustrated with getting “Segmentation Error”messages, and the seemingly clunky way of doing things in general. So, I got Global Mapper, and was able to get things done with it pretty quickly, and was really pleased with how easy it was to change projections, save images in other formats, and so on. Also, the support when a problem arose was free and amazingly fast. (However, I plan to actually try to really learn Arcview 3.2 as well, since the government departments I work with use it. Can’t afford anything more than that.)

So, what I’m wondering is how the folks on this site view Global Mapper. I’ve stopped upgrading at version 6.9, and may or may not ever have the need for more sophisticated features. How does GM rate with you professional users?
41 tired of it // Jan 2, 2007 at 8:05 pm

I used Global mapper a couple years ago and I was fairly impressed with it for the type of day-to-day tasks you mention as well as the wide range of data formats supported. That said, Manifold is at the same price point and back when I had Global Mapper available, I prefered Manifold.
42 James Fee // Jan 2, 2007 at 8:16 pm

Nice friendly community you have here James. I’ll be sure to never come back…

I’ll be honest, if that comment bothers you, this isn’t the blog for you. Things do get tend to get personal around here for some reason. Probably because we are all passionate about GIS.
43 Canuck // Jan 2, 2007 at 8:45 pm

@ ESRIPricer Why would it hurt to call up ESRI Telesales and ask for a quote? They will tell you a price right over the phone. They won’t even ask where you work. If they do, make something up if you really want to. Asking for a quote is definitely not establishing a relationship with a vendor, and believe me, they will NOT call you up on a follow-up to sell you their stuff.
44 Caitlin // Jan 3, 2007 at 9:48 am

@ ESRIPricer - you need to shop around to find the best deal. Buying directly from ESRI tends to be the most expensive because ESRI wants you to use their business partners. Get a few quotes from various vendors that sell ESRI software and then you’ll have a pretty good idea of what the ball park is on what everything costs.
45 Whitey // Jan 3, 2007 at 5:27 pm

@tired of it

WKB? What? Its not listed as a specification on the OGC site. From a google search I gather that it is some sort of binary geometry. But the OGC has a SimpleFeatureSql(BinaryGeometry) 1.1 spec which is supported by ESRI products.
46 Tired of it // Jan 3, 2007 at 6:20 pm

@Whitey

Here is some info from ESRI on Well Known Binary (WKB)

http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/index.cfm?id=2111&pid=2108&topicname=The_OGC_Well-Known_Binary_representation_for_geometry

And here is a matrix illustrating that nothing short of adding ArcGIS Server Basic Enterprise ($10,000) to your setup will allow you to read/write WKB
47 Tired of it // Jan 3, 2007 at 6:21 pm

http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/index.cfm?id=2186&pid=2179&topicname=About_geometry_storage_types
48 KoS // Jan 3, 2007 at 7:40 pm

There should be a college football playoffs!!

And it’s all Manifolds and ESRIs fault…….

KoS
49 No so tired of it // Jan 4, 2007 at 11:25 am

Tired of it: The reason they don’t use WKB in their personal geodatabase is because it is inefficient. Using the compressed format gives you a good performance gain. Their compressed format is still documented, so you can easily create a reader/writer for it.
50 tj // Jan 4, 2007 at 11:47 am

Things do get tend to get personal around here for some reason. Probably because we are all passionate about GIS.

Passionate == rude, personal, and insulting

I don’t buy that. A lack of civility is a lack of civility, plain and simple. If you can’t make your point without getting crass and personally insulting, then you are probably an intellectual, GIS lightweight. So, perhaps what this says is the insulting people on this blog are just a lower teir user who can’t compete in a more grown-up forum.

And, if you search through the blog, I think that is correct. There are a number of people here who argue their case with great skill, always maintaining a level of decency.

..then, there are people like Lefty…
51 James Fee // Jan 4, 2007 at 11:56 am

Passionate == rude, personal, and insulting

I don’t buy that. A lack of civility is a lack of civility, plain and simple. If you can’t make your point without getting crass and personally insulting, then you are probably an intellectual, GIS lightweight. So, perhaps what this says is the insulting people on this blog are just a lower teir user who can’t compete in a more grown-up forum.

Fair enough, I’ve made decisions not to stifle conversations on here (I can think of only one comment I’ve deleted).

And, if you search through the blog, I think that is correct. There are a number of people here who argue their case with great skill, always maintaining a level of decency.

I hope there are more here that are this way than those who attack people.

..then, there are people like Lefty…

Yea, he/she is always in there.
52 Caitlin // Jan 4, 2007 at 12:02 pm

I applaud James for allowing free form commentary. The unfortunate by-product will always be some comments that are less than civil - I don’t think this blog is unique in that aspect.
53 tj // Jan 4, 2007 at 12:23 pm

Caitlin: I agree. This is a great forum to hammer out ideas. Its just unfortunate that people like esripricer don’t feel comfortable participating after they get slammed.
54 Tired of it // Jan 4, 2007 at 2:20 pm

@No so tired of it

No, the binary form being more efficient might be a reason to use it as the default but it is not a reason to exclude a standards option, instead locking us into their format. In fact, the following link states that the design is that Personal and Workgroup can only work with ESRI products

http://webhelp.esri.com/arcgisdesktop/9.2/index.cfm?TopicName=Different_types_of_ArcSDE_geodatabases

Easily create a reader/writer? I’m not even going to address that. Do you have a link for the documentation you mention? All I have been able to find is at the link below, which is for 9.1 ArcSDE. I have not yet been able to find anything concerning the binary in 9.2

http://edndoc.esri.com/arcsde/9.1/general_topics/binary_geometry_format.htm
55 No so tired of it // Jan 4, 2007 at 5:02 pm

@Tired of it
The compressed format hasn’t changed for a long time, and is still the same for 9.2.
An yes it’s not that hard to make (I’ve done it myself), and the link you give is more or less all you need, apart from a basic understanding of the SDE tables. My point isn’t that you should make it, but any developer who wants to, can implement the support in their application, just like most already did for shapefiles.
56 Tired of it // Jan 4, 2007 at 5:42 pm

@Not so tired of it

That is good to hear on the binary staying the same, thank you for your help.